Trinity – t8's proof text #1

[Not3in1]

Tim – that is amazing! I didn't know that about the word PARAKLETOS and I have always thought the Comforter was Jesus by other scriptures. But, of course, others just thought I was so deep into a cult that I couldn't see straight. Sigh.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 27 2007,13:15)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 27 2007,06:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,06:30) If only TWO in us……..why not THREE?  I tell ya, the Holy Ghost always gets what Patty shot at!   The Comforter, IMO, is neither the personal Spirit of the Father nor Son….happy to give my reasonings if requested. Hi Is 1:18, I would like to hear that as well. I think that scripture is very clear who the comforter is. The word that is used for comforter is the Greek word parakletos. Aside from the four verses in John where Jesus uses parakletos to describe the comforter that will come when He leaves, it is only used one other time in the entire bible. In 1 Jn 2:1, John says that Jesus is the parakletos. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Tim

Tim

Tim should we Just ignore those 5 scriptures?

Did Jesus send himself?

Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he* shall testify of me:

Jn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send *him* unto you.

How about…

Jn 14:6
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jn 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto.

So Jesus will speak of himself, and will Glorify himself and will take from himself and show it to us.

What about all those pronouns Jesus uses for the Comforter?

No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 27 2007,06:58)

Does God have a spirit? Does Christ have a spirit? Do we have a spirit? The answer is yes all 3 of the above have a spirit or are spirit So how then can God and Christ be one and one with us and we with each other. By our spirits of course. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. It is by our spirit that we can be one with God who is spirit and with the son. Obviously we are not one with Christ in the flesh are we. It isn't really that complicated. John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

t8

So when you say Christ has a Spirit and God has a Spirit,

does this mean that more than “One Spirit” lives in you?

Do you think the Spirit of Jesus is a differnt substance than the Father who is Spirit?

Because we know our Spirits are of a different substance.

Question for the Arian followers, (those who do not have a Trinitarian view).

How do you reconcile the folowing scriptures from an Arian view?

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to *drink into one Spirit*.

Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access *by one Spirit* unto the Father.

Eph 4:4
There is one body, and *ONE Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty.

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

As you can see these scriptures state there is the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, the Spirit, Spirit of Him, His Spirit, Comforter all gloriously united together as One Spirit, which Paul calls the Spirit of God.

When someone accepts Jesus into their heart does the Spirit of Christ or God or the Comforter come to live in them?

How many Spirits do they recieve?

Blessings!  

[Not3in1]

WJ wrote:

Jn 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.
***********************************************

The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it. He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below:
“This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….”

God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!” This is how we can determine who is a false god. Look at the verses below. Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me.

As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity:

John 5:30
“By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……”

And

John 16:13
“But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.”

Thoughts?

[Not3in1]

WJ wrote:
As you can see these scriptures state there is the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, the Spirit, Spirit of Him, His Spirit, Comforter all gloriously united together as One Spirit, which Paul calls the Spirit of God.
*****************

This is sad to me. Because knowing the Spirit of Jesus is to really grasp who and what Jesus is. To lump him in with the Father is to confuse the two, together. And really, rob each of them of their personality.

Speaking of reconciling……it's hard to reconcile that there is only One Spirit, and that is God. And then list many spirits as you have done. Do mean to say that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost do not all have their “own” spirits? Let me understand correctly what you are purposing.

Because if that is what you are purposing, which “spirit” did Christ offer up at the cross?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12)

WJ wrote: Jn 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”. *********************************************** The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below: “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….” God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me. As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity: John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……” And John 16:13 “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.” Thoughts?

Hi Not3in1,

I think that you are right on.

John is saying the same thing here about Jesus, that Jesus said about himself in all of his teachings.

While living as a man He constantly said that he could do nothing unless it came from the Father. Everything that he said, came from the Father. And even when He comes back as the comforter in spirit, He can only speak what He hears from His Father, who is the only being that can show you things that will come.

While alive as a man Jesus was the truth. After He dies, He returns as the spirit of truth.

[Not3in1]

Tim wrote:
While alive as a man Jesus was the truth. After He dies, He returns as the spirit of truth.
***********************

Ah-ha! Keep this good stuff coming! Thanks, Tim.

OK, as much as I hate to leave this forum (I could do this all day), I have to head out to see a client….sigh….work. Can't wait to see more responses to this thread.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:27)

This is sad to me.  Because knowing the Spirit of Jesus is to really grasp who and what Jesus is.    To lump him in with the Father is to confuse the two, together.  And really, rob each of them of their personality.

Hi Not3in1,

You are absolutely right. It is truly sad.
The trinity theory has so muddied the waters that
people are unable to understand even the simple clear scriptures that tell us who Christ is.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12)

WJ wrote: Jn 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”. *********************************************** The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below: “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….” God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me. As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity: John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……” And John 16:13 “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.” Thoughts?

Tim

Sorry but I dont agree.

First of all Jesus could have easily said I will come to you for I will hear what the Father says and show it to you and I will send my self and glorify myself.

This is the delima that those who do not accept that there is three persons yet One God, have.

Because to reconcile the scriptures so that they are in harmony there is no other way to see it if you take “ALL” Scripture into account.

The Bible says  God is Spirit and there is “ONE Spirit” that we have all been made to drink of, and that Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Jesus would not have used “allos parakletos” Another Comforter if he was speaking of himself.

And again all the pronouns he used “He, Him, Etc” to describe the Holy Spirit.

One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12)

WJ wrote: Jn 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”. *********************************************** The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below: “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….” God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me. As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity: John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……” And John 16:13 “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.” Thoughts?

Not3in1

Rom 8:9-11 says the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are the Same Spirit.

How many Spirits do we have.

The Bible says One Spirit.

I ask you to read the post closely and show me what scripture you disagree with.

One Spirit, Three persons, One God!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:27)

WJ wrote: As you can see these scriptures state there is the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, the Spirit, Spirit of Him, His Spirit, Comforter all gloriously united together as One Spirit, which Paul calls the Spirit of God. ***************** This is sad to me.  Because knowing the Spirit of Jesus is to really grasp who and what Jesus is.    To lump him in with the Father is to confuse the two, together.  And really, rob each of them of their personality.   Speaking of reconciling……it's hard to reconcile that there is only One Spirit, and that is God.  And then list many spirits as you have done.  Do mean to say that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost do not all have their “own” spirits?  Let me understand correctly what you are purposing. Because if that is what you are purposing, which “spirit” did Christ offer up at the cross?

Not3in1

Does Jesus live in you?

Does God live in you?

Does the Holy Spirit live in you?

If they do is it 3 Spirits or One Spirit that lives in you?

These are honest questions.

Please explain.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 27 2007,17:36)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12) WJ wrote: Jn 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”. *********************************************** The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below: “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….” God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me. As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity: John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……” And John 16:13 “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.” Thoughts? Hi Not3in1, I think that you are right on. John is saying the same thing here about Jesus, that Jesus said about himself in all of his teachings. While living as a man He constantly said that he could do nothing unless it came from the Father. Everything that he said, came from the Father. And even when He comes back as the comforter in spirit, He can only speak what He hears from His Father, who is the only being that can show you things that will come. While alive as a man Jesus was the truth. After He dies, He  returns as the spirit of truth.

Tim

Of course Jesus is the Spirit of truth because he is the Spirit of God.

The Lord is that Spirit.

[Not3in1]

Does Jesus live in you?

WJ wrote:

Does God live in you?

Does the Holy Spirit live in you?

If they do is it 3 Spirits or One Spirit that lives in you?
**************************

It might help to clarify something. I do not believe that the “Holy Spirit” is another person. I believe that the “Holy Spirit” is who God is.

1 Cor. 2:10-12
“…but God has revealed it to us by HIS SPIRIT. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? IN THE SAME WAY, no one knows the thoughts of God except the SPIRIT OF GOD……the Spirit who is from God……”

And

Eph. 4:30
“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit OF God, with *whom* you were sealed until the day of redemption.”

*note*other translation say WHICH instead of WHOM – one denotes a person, while the other a means by which…careful of translations!

So, to answer your good question: God has sent the spirit of his Son to me so that I can be included with Jesus, and call out, “Abba Father.” It is a spirit of SONSHIP that Jesus extends to me…..the adopted one. In this way (and in only this way), I am “in” Jesus, and Jesus is “in” me. We are “one” like Jesus and his Father are “one.” In this regard, as I have shown.

God's spirit is my down payment, my deposit, my guarentee that I am his!

I have God's Holy Spirit “in” me. I am also privileged to be counted with Christ and receive his spirit of sonship (not another person). Because, there is only One Spirit – that of God – the Father (not Jesus).

I hope I genuinely answered this for you from my perspective. If not, ask me to clarify a point at a time. I'm finding that you all are much faster at digesting large portions of posts, and topics, than I am.

[Not3in1]

I re-read my post and just want to see if I can boil it down a bit further:

Because I do not embrace the Trinity doctrine, I do not believe that there are three persons who make up one God. Therefore, I have God's Holy Spirit indwelling in me (the Father only). And the spirit of Jesus is available to all who will believe on him and be counted for the Kingdom. It's not another spirit that I am receiving (or person) inside of me. It's more like a gift – kind of like saying, “Hey, you're in the club now….here's your card with the code to get to the Throne Room.”

Aside from this, I do have a question to ask that I've been thinking about lately:

If the creeds of the church were never written, and the councils never met and developed the Trinity doctrine, and you never had the presumption of three-in-one when you looked at scripture……..would you still find the Trinity as you know it today?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,20:51)

I re-read my post and just want to see if I can boil it down a bit further: Because I do not embrace the Trinity doctrine, I do not believe that there are three persons who make up one God.  Therefore, I have God's Holy Spirit indwelling in me (the Father only).  And the spirit of Jesus is available to all who will believe on him and be counted for the Kingdom.  It's not another spirit that I am receiving (or person) inside of me.  It's more like a gift – kind of like saying, “Hey, you're in the club now….here's your card with the code to get to the Throne Room.” Aside from this, I do have a question to ask that I've been thinking about lately: If the creeds of the church were never written, and the councils never met and developed the Trinity doctrine, and you never had the presumption of three-in-one when you looked at scripture……..would you still find the Trinity as you know it today?

not3in1

For the 33 years I have been saved I have never seen the light of a Catholic Church, and new nothing of a creed for many years.

I have always believed John I:1 And Heb 1:8 as well as many other passages for just what they say.

Over the years as I have studied the scriptures I find that to have harmony in all of the scriptures then the Trinitarian view best describes who God is.

I see so many people taking this or that scripture and explaining it away or just ignoring them because they dont understand them or because it dosnt fit their view.

Many when they understand then begin to say, that its because the Translators messed with the text.

If we approach the Holy Scripures like that then we are open to all kinds of nonsense.

But if we accept the Holy Scriptures by faith and trust the Holy Spirit to lead us and reveal the word to us, then he will do just that.

Now I have a question for you!

You say…

Quote

So, to answer your good question:  God has sent the spirit of his Son to me so that I can be included with Jesus, and call out, “Abba Father.”  It is a spirit of SONSHIP that Jesus extends to me…..the adopted one.  In this way (and in only this way), I am “in” Jesus, and Jesus is “in” me.  We are “one” like Jesus and his Father are “one.”  In this regard, as I have shown. God's spirit is my down payment, my deposit, my guarentee that I am his! I have God's Holy Spirit “in” me.  I am also privileged to be counted with Christ and receive his spirit of sonship (not another person).  Because, there is only One Spirit – that of God – the Father (not Jesus). I hope I genuinely answered this for you from my perspective.  If not, ask me to clarify a point at a time.  I'm finding that you all are much faster at digesting large portions of posts, and topics, than I am.

I am confused by your statement.

On one hand you say that God sent the “Spirit of his Son” into your heart, but then you say you have Gods Spirit in you and there is only “One Spirit” which is the Fathers.

Could you clarify what you mean?

Is it two Spirits that we have. The Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of God?

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You say
“If we approach the Holy Scripures like that then we are open to all kinds of nonsense.”
Trinity is nonsense.

[Not3in1]

WJ wrote:

Is it two Spirits that we have. The Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of God?
***********************

The Father and his Son have (each) their own spirits; that is, WHO they are. Just like you have a spirit, and I have a spirit.

The Father's spirit is “the Holy Spirit of God,” which is talked about in scriptures. It is the spirit that fills us, and by whom we live and have our being. When we speak of the One Spirit – this is the spirit of which we speak.

The Son's spirit is “the spirit of Christ,” which is given to us by the Father when he “qualified” us to share in the inheritence of his son. God says this:

Col. 1:12, 13

“…..giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of th Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

How are we “qualified” to share in the kingdom of his Son?

Gal 4:4-7 in part
“But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a women…under law….to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, the spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” SO YOU ARE NO LONGER A SLAVE, but a son……”

We are “qualified” by God to be a son (and not a slave), BECAUSE God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts. God did not send us “another” spirit other than his own. Oh! What did I just say? It sounds lke I'm contradicting myself. But, wait. Hear me out. What “spirit” did Jesus have “in” him? Answer: God's Holy spirit. What spirit of Jesus annointed with? Answer: God's Holy Spirit. For me, that does not mean the third person of God. It means the Father only – just for clarification there.

So if Jesus had God's Holy spirit inside of him, that is the spirit that I have inside of me. Jesus was sharing the spirit of SONSHIP with us. Not actually another “spirit.” Does this make sense? I believe that is what the verses in Galations are trying to show us.

[Not3in1]

In other words:

God's Holy spirit is in me; I am the temple of God's spirit.

The spirit of Christ works through me.

There is a difference, I believe.

[Not3in1]

God's Holy spirit in me is my ticket into paradise.

Evidence of the spirit of his Son working in me, and through me, is what qualifies me to be in paradise.

I hope I'm starting to boil this down. I'm not sure I can say it any other way. Anyone else want to give a try?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 28 2007,17:10)

God's Holy spirit in me is my ticket into paradise. Evidence of the spirit of his Son working in me, and through me, is what qualifies me to be in paradise. I hope I'm starting to boil this down.  I'm not sure I can say it any other way.  Anyone else want to give a try?

Hi Not3in1,

You are doing fine.
Let me tell you how I have come to see this.

For years when I prayed for God to fill me with the Holy Spirit. I perceived that spirit to be the Father God's spirit.
I had no reason to believe any differently.
Before Jesus died however, he told us that God would send another comforter, or counselor. I believe other comforter is the spirit of Jesus. So now when I asked to be filled with the Spirit, I believe that God is sending the spirit of Jesus to guide and instruct me.

The spirit of Jesus is in accord with the spirit of His Fathers'.
So what ever He tells me, is what He has been told by His Father.
The result is the same. Everything by God, everything through Jesus.

That is overly simplyfied, but what can I say.
I am a simple minded person.

Tim

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