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Thanks Laurel, but can you put it succinctly and in you own words please. I honestly can't be bothered wading my way through this document.
Peace.
To Laurel.
Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 23 2007,10:36) Other Author in Dec. 2007
at least that's what I could make of it. My file is jazzed up with some wierd editing format. I have to research more to see if this is correct info.
Oh I see what you are saying.You are talking about this page:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer08.htmIt is an HTML document, so it is best viewed through a browser, even when it is saved to your computer.
The page was written about 5 years ago.
Check this out!
Trinity Test
Here is a simple but effective test.
Replace the word 'God' in the bible with 'Trinity' (or Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and then read a random collection of verses that have the word God in them.
E.g., John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
OK, so trust in the (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and also in me. That makes 4. Who is 'me', if the son is already mentioned?
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So the Trinity so loved the world that the Trinity gave his son. That makes 4. Given this reasoning there must be 2 sons.
Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
So the Trinity is the Father of Jesus. But wait isn't Jesus part of the Trinity?
All verses that mention God and his son are rendered meaningless with a Trinitarian understanding. But Trinitarians do actually interpret God in these verses as the Father out of necessity, but not in the verses that do not mention the son.
E.g., 1 John 2:17
The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
A Trinitarian would most likely say that this was the Father, Son, & Spirit.
But they would also probably say that the following verse is only the Father.
Revelation 1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Isn't that the weirdest thing. God is the Trinity except when the son is also mentioned. Coincidence or simply picking and choosing the meaning depending on what their itching ears want to hear?
I leave you with the following verse:
1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.I found this on the link above.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 30 2007,20:35) Thanks Laurel, but can you put it succinctly and in you own words please. I honestly can't be bothered wading my way through this document. Peace.
Is,Take my advice, you need a day off and you'll have to learn to swim.
Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 02 2007,12:03) Check this out! Trinity Test
Here is a simple but effective test.
Replace the word 'God' in the bible with 'Trinity' (or Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and then read a random collection of verses that have the word God in them.
E.g., John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
OK, so trust in the (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and also in me. That makes 4. Who is 'me', if the son is already mentioned?
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So the Trinity so loved the world that the Trinity gave his son. That makes 4. Given this reasoning there must be 2 sons.
Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
So the Trinity is the Father of Jesus. But wait isn't Jesus part of the Trinity?
All verses that mention God and his son are rendered meaningless with a Trinitarian understanding. But Trinitarians do actually interpret God in these verses as the Father out of necessity, but not in the verses that do not mention the son.
E.g., 1 John 2:17
The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
A Trinitarian would most likely say that this was the Father, Son, & Spirit.
But they would also probably say that the following verse is only the Father.
Revelation 1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Isn't that the weirdest thing. God is the Trinity except when the son is also mentioned. Coincidence or simply picking and choosing the meaning depending on what their itching ears want to hear?
I leave you with the following verse:
1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.I found this on the link above.
Hi Larel,
What a funny narration it is?WJ
From the start of this debate :
Quote Quote Make up your mind. Everything is everything. All power is All power and Jesus has it. You ever think of how much power that is?
**********
WJ – obviously you cannot grasp my point. Do me the honor of pondering it for a while and see if anything comes to you? And I will ponder “how much power” Jesus has.
All power is all power? – look up that word in the Greek you will find it denotes authority (exousia) as opposed to actual dynamic power (dounomus)
Jesus has the authority as Joseph had authority to govern on behalf of and in the name of Pharoah. The power is not of himself but is given (granted) as the scriptures declare. So everything is not necessarily everything and all power is not necessarily all power.
Context and therefore true meaning is only accessible through understanding and by the help of the Holy Spirit.
IMOQuote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,10:10)
WJFrom the start of this debate :
Quote Quote Make up your mind. Everything is everything. All power is All power and Jesus has it. You ever think of how much power that is?
**********
WJ – obviously you cannot grasp my point. Do me the honor of pondering it for a while and see if anything comes to you? And I will ponder “how much power” Jesus has.
Hi MFmalcolm wrote:All power is all power? – look up that word in the Greek you will find it denotes authority (exousia) as opposed to actual dynamic power (dounomus)
True, but maybe yoiu can explain to me how one can have all power and not all authority.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,10:10)
Jesus has the authority as Joseph had authority to govern on behalf of and in the name of Pharoah.
But if Joseph had “all authority” then he would be equal to the Pharoah. But we know that Joseph didnt have all authority for the throne was reserved for the pharoah. However Yeshua has “all authority” and sits in the throne with the Father.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,10:10) The power is not of himself but is given (granted) as the scriptures declare.
The power is given post incarnation. Yeshau who was in the form of God, “the Word that was God” emptied himself according to Phil 2 and came in the likeness of sinful flesh.No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known John 1:18
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,10:10)
So everything is not necessarily everything and all power is not necessarily all power.
Really? Where I come from “all” means “all” and “everything” means “everything”.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 03 2008,10:10) Context and therefore true meaning is only accessible through understanding and by the help of the Holy Spirit.
IMOThis is a true statement…
He himself is before all things and “all things are held together in him“. Col 1:14
To hold all things together takes all authority and all power.
The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and “he sustains all things by his powerful word“ Heb 1:3
If he “by his word” sustains all things then that takes all power and all authority.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Do you think your constant use of inference produces foundational truths that you can teach from?
Why not just let scripture teach you as it is sacred?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,12:54) Hi WJ,
Do you think your constant use of inference produces foundational truths that you can teach from?
Why not just let scripture teach you as it is sacred?
NHHeckle, Heckle, Heckle.
It would help if you presented some dialogue here rather than just act like a badger.
Or maybe you do not have a response.
WJ
Hi WJ
Quote But if Joseph had “all authority” then he would be equal to the Pharoah. But we know that Joseph didnt have all authority for the throne was reserved for the pharoah. However Yeshua has “all authority” and sits in the throne with the Father.
Jesus presently sits upon the throne of GOD for one very good reason, as the propitiation sacrifice he represents the blood upon the Mercy seat. When that blood is removed from the Mercy seat it becomes God’s Judgment seat. It is his blood that presently intercedes for us.
Another thing to notice concerning Jesus present seating position is that he himself states that it presently is not his throne but rather His Fathers’
REVELATION 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.Jesus will sit with us upon his throne (the throne of David as the Son of David) in the Millennial reign (imo) with us as King and Queen – husband and bride.
Also based upon your logic the verse above would then indicate that we also must receive all power and all authority as it clearly says we will sit with him in his throne. If that is the same throne as his Father and his sitting upon it proves his absolute power and authority then are we not also included? I don’t think so.Quote
Hi MFmalcolm wrote:All power is all power? – look up that word in the Greek you will find it denotes authority (exousia) as opposed to actual dynamic power (dounomus)
Quote True, but maybe you can explain to me how one can have all power and not all authority. In context to your original comment I believe (forgive me if I am mistaken) that you were referring to the place in scripture where Jesus tells his disciples that ‘all power’ is given to him.
My reply was in this context to point out the fact that the word power there should actually read as ‘authority’.
In this context he does not have all power and not all authority rather he has all authority but the power belongs to God.
By way of poor illustration –
The officer who directs traffic in a situation where the lights have failed or whatever, has the authority of the city, as his badge and uniform indicates – to direct the traffic. When he puts up his hand to stop an oncoming truck – he has full authority to do so in the name of the city. If the truck’s brakes are shot however he had better get out of the way quick or he will be flattened. In other words he does not have the dynamic power to stop the truck.
Poor illustration but hopefully it delivers the point…Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2008,13:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2008,12:54) Hi WJ,
Do you think your constant use of inference produces foundational truths that you can teach from?
Why not just let scripture teach you as it is sacred?
NHHeckle, Heckle, Heckle.
It would help if you presented some dialogue here rather than just act like a badger.
Or maybe you do not have a response.
WJ
Actually Nick has a good point and there is no good reason to reject what he said.Wow,
You people haven't grown a bit since months ago when I last popped in. If you want to know the important matters, first you need the milk of the Word. Afterward you can have meat. Milk refers to learning and keeping the commandments.So from this perspective, there aren't any people here keeping them huh?
Yes, the 4th one too!
I get dizzy when I come here and read the circles you all make with your man-made doctrine and imagined wisdom.
When are you all gonna wake up? Who are you helping? Step back and listen to yourselves.
The trinity is the basis for all christain faith. Your mother would be proud of your defiance. Her forhead reveals the truth. It reads, WHORE OF BABYLON!!!!
Really there as so many doctrines that differ fromone christian to another, but they all agree that the trinity is real, they just can't proove it and say it is because of their faith.
They base their faith on a fairytale that goes bact to Nimrod, Sumramis and Tammuz! He is the sun you worship. He is the sun of the trinity!!!!
Scripture reveals it and you are all to blind to see it because you can't even keep the commandments!
Nimrod and his high places are still in the world today. YHWH Elohim will destroy all false worship.
Quit bickering and listen to Jeremiah.
WAKE UP BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!
Hey Laurel,
It doesn't appear that you have changed at all either. Still mocking and critizing…..still thinking that you are better than all of us “people” who can only digest milk (spare me).
James 3:17
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.It doesn't appear that you have any heavenly wisdom to share with us. Maybe next time you pop-in to visit us you will have a grown a little more in the Lord, huh? Stick with the milk.
Milk is good for all of us. In fact, pass the jug – I'll take a tall tumbler full. Mmmmm!
Mandy
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