Trinity &#8211; t8&#39;s proof text #1

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
You quote.
“The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)”
as if that precludes Jesus being a son of God by any other means.

Of course it does not.
The Monogenes Son was sent into the world.
Rom 1. 1Jn 4.

March 22, 2007 at 8:37 pm#46654

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“Hey Phoenix,
I'm not getting on your case here. I underscored “scriptural” so you would notice the word more than anything. I certainly I don't disagree that He is the Son of God but John 3:16-17 doesn't really tell us why He is properly called by this. A really clear scriptural reason is given in Luke 1:35.

Of course if you accept trinity theory then God [the Father] is not the father of Jesus anyway but the Spirit is so the rest is just semantics.

Matt 1
” 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”

Trinity theory is dangerous intellectual folly.

March 22, 2007 at 9:07 pm#46655

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 22 2007,20:24)

WJ wrote:

I see.

So the Lord showed you the definition of “pride” is when someone dosnt “Submit to your doctrine or belief” then they are proud. HMMM?

****************************************************************
I prayed, and then came to a conclusion myself regarding pride. Re read my post!

It exhausts me to interact with you, WJ. You can read into THAT whatever you wish. That is the problem with your slant on scripture is that you read into everything (while saying you take scripture literally – it's a merry-go-round with you – and I want OFF).

I'll leave the interaction with you to t8, Nick and others. They definitely have a more mature faith, and the ability to love you in spite of yourself. I'm not that mature yet! The reason I know this is because I bite on every little piece of bait you through out here….and there are worms and dead fish everywhere! Ha!

I'd like to try chatting with you later, when I've learned to control myself, and am able to remember the most excellent way – Love.

Not3in1

You are right about the worms and dead fish my friend! They are everywhere!

March 22, 2007 at 9:25 pm#46656

Participant

Hi W,
So which person in the “trinity god” is the physical father of Jesus?

March 22, 2007 at 9:58 pm#46657

kenrch

Participant

Is1:18,

You remind me of someone else “what the scripture doesn't say “

“Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:”

What does the scripture SAY?

You are already stating that you are wrong by denying what the scripture says. Give a different interpretation, but don't say what the scripture doesn't say. The scripture says what it says. You mean by using other scriptures you will show that this scripture doesn't say what it says?

If that is the case then why can't someone show that this scripture shows what the other scriptures are saying?

Are we to learn by what scripture DOES NOT say? Sorry but I find that very weird.

IHL,

Ken

March 23, 2007 at 3:51 am#46658

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 22 2007,22:58)

Is1:18,

You remind me of someone else “what the scripture doesn't say “

“Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:”

What does the scripture SAY?

If that is the case then why can't someone show that this scripture shows what the other scriptures are saying?

Are we to learn by what scripture DOES NOT say? Sorry but I find that very weird.

IHL,

Ken

Hi Ken,
I think you need to go back and read those comments in context.

March 23, 2007 at 4:03 am#46659

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 23 2007,17:58)

Is1:18,

You remind me of someone else “what the scripture doesn't say “

“Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:”

What does the scripture SAY?

If that is the case then why can't someone show that this scripture shows what the other scriptures are saying?

Are we to learn by what scripture DOES NOT say? Sorry but I find that very weird.

IHL,

Ken

Good post K.

March 23, 2007 at 4:10 am#46660

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 23 2007,14:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2007,19:32)

Hi W,
You say.
“Paul and the Apostles almost always couple the Father and Jesus together in their salutations and valedictions”
Funny that.
Couple means two.
Not one
Not three
Two.
But you do not READ what you quote or say.

Yes there is three persons, “One God”!

To WorshippingJesus.

When you pray to God (the Trinity version) pray like this:

“My God in Heaven.
How are you all.
I pray that you will ALL bless me, forgive me, and look after me.”

You see WorhippingJesus, we should be praying to God, not his substance.

However when I pray to God, I am praying to one God. Substance has nothing to do with it because I pray to the Father.

I can only conclude that you pray to the substance if you talk to him as one and refer to him as HIM, HIS, etc.

But if you pray to the Father in Yeshua's name, then you are praying to God through his son. This is what scipture teaches.

March 23, 2007 at 4:37 am#46661

942767

Participant

Hi Isaiah 1:18:

You quote John 17:5 as one of the scriptures that support your belief that Jesus pre-existed his birth as a man child. The verse states: “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”. But I believe that he explains what is meant by this scripture in John 17:24 which states: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that may may behold my glory, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: FOR THOU LOVEDEST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD”.

John 17:24 indicates to me that Jesus glorification was pre-destined rather than he pre-existed his birth into this world. He was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world. (1 Peter 1:20)

God Bless

March 23, 2007 at 4:49 am#46662

Participant

Hi (4,
Actually I think it means what it says, that the firstborn son of God was loved by God before the foundations of the earth were laid and the monogenes son was among the sons of Jb 38 who rejoiced to see it happen.

March 23, 2007 at 6:29 am#46663

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2007,05:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 23 2007,14:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2007,19:32)

Yes there is three persons, “One God”!

To WorshippingJesus.

When you pray to God (the Trinity version) pray like this:

“My God in Heaven.
How are you all.
I pray that you will ALL bless me, forgive me, and look after me.”

You see WorhippingJesus, we should be praying to God, not his substance.

However when I pray to God, I am praying to one God. Substance has nothing to do with it because I pray to the Father.

I can only conclude that you pray to the substance if you talk to him as one and refer to him as HIM, HIS, etc.

But if you pray to the Father in Yeshua's name, then you are praying to God through his son. This is what scipture teaches.

You should really think about what you say before you post, especially in using sarcasm and mimicking language.

Its not my business to tell you how to run this forum, but it dosnt shed a good light on you or the forum.

But, for the subject at hand!

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Are you saying that you have no fellowship with the Son?

And if you do, how do you fellowship with him without “prayer” to him?

2. Do you believe that when someone “calls on the name of the Lord”, “Jesus”, and they repent and he comes into their heart, that at that point they should never pray to Jesus again?

3. Also since Jesus is no longer “physically here”, are men suppose to cease from coming to him, and if not how do they come to him without prayer?

Jesus made many claims that only “God” could make. For instance…

Matt 11:
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

If we take your approach then we cannot come to him for there is no way to do that but by prayer. Right?

But more importantly, Jesus is saying to “All Mankind”, to come to him, all over the world, many at the same time, and he will make their burden light and teach them “Of himself”. (Why didn’t he say “learn of the Father”?) Just a thought..

Jn 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Is this a normal man? No. This is the “Monogenes” (Unique), Son of God!

Couple of scriptures…

Mk 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
(Would you forbid little children to come to Christ “through prayer” )?

Jn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jn 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 9:14
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

Do the above scriptures still apply for all men today?

1 Jn 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship (koinonia) with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Fellowship koinonia; which means:
1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
a) the share which one has in anything, participation
b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy

As far as the Spirit…

Phil 2:1
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship (koinonia) of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

The selfsame Spirit, the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Comforter (parakletos), the ontologically “ONE” Spirit that dwells in us also helps us with our infirmitys, for we don’t know how to pray as we ought.

Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Jn 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he (Comforter} shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (Fellowship}.

t8.

If you think that just praying a prayer to the Father and just tacking the name of Jesus on it is enough. Its not. You see its important to know what it means to pray “IN” the name of Jesus.

It might have something to do with “substance”!

Blessings

March 23, 2007 at 6:45 am#46664

Participant

Hi W,
You say
'Jesus made many claims that only “God” could make. For instance…

Matt 11:
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”

Jesus identified God as the Father so in what way does Jesus here instead identify himself as God?

March 23, 2007 at 10:28 am#46665

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,02:29)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2007,05:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 23 2007,14:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2007,19:32)

Yes there is three persons, “One God”!

To WorshippingJesus.

When you pray to God (the Trinity version) pray like this:

“My God in Heaven.
How are you all.
I pray that you will ALL bless me, forgive me, and look after me.”

You see WorhippingJesus, we should be praying to God, not his substance.

However when I pray to God, I am praying to one God. Substance has nothing to do with it because I pray to the Father.

I can only conclude that you pray to the substance if you talk to him as one and refer to him as HIM, HIS, etc.

But if you pray to the Father in Yeshua's name, then you are praying to God through his son. This is what scipture teaches.

You should really think about what you say before you post, especially in using sarcasm and mimicking language.

Its not my business to tell you how to run this forum, but it dosnt shed a good light on you or the forum.

To WorshippingJesus.

I am not ashamed of what I said just as Yeshua wasn't ashamed when he called the Pharisees a bunch of blood suckers. I used an illustration that was appropriate regarding the point I was making.

If you say God is triune and you can pray to all 3 of them, then how come when Trinitarians pray to God, they don't say “How are you all”, “can you all bless me” and that sort of thing.

Your theology demands that you pray in such a way if you believe in a multiple person one substance God.

Yet you pray to God as if there was only one person because that is what we see in scripture. i.e., that God is called by the following pronouns, Him, His, He, etc.

The one part in the term 'one God' from a Trinitarian perspective is explained as one substance and if you call God, 'Him', then surely you are praying to the substance in that case, because it is either one substance or 3 persons. Can you see this?

Now if you were talking to MEwould you call me “you guys”? Of course not. Would you talk to my flesh? Or would you talk to me, the person? Yet I am a 'he' I am a person, and yet I am a He just as God is, (I am not talking about gender here).

So when people pray to God they are surely not talking to his nature, substance, or form, they are talking to HIM. They are talking to the person/identity. Yet you refer to him in a singular sense, while you believe that God is made up of 3 persons.

Isn't that strange? Isn't that a contradiction?

You can say this sheds bad light on this BB, but I think the truth is it shows how confused you are and how confusing the Trinity doctrine really is. It also shows me that you are trying to avoid explaining this confusion by moving the attention away from the confusion I am pointing out to my credibility and the light that sheds on these forums.

Isn't that also strange? The same thing happened when Yeshua spoke. He also challenged the religious and some of them tried to find an accusation against him.

But if you were being honest WorshippingJesus, you wouldn't divert the attention away would you? If you were being challenged by anything you believe and you were noble, you would take that as a good thing as it may just expose a possible weakness in your faith. In other words you would welcome such questions as they could possibly challenge you to the point of obtaining a more perfect faith.

But if you wished to avoid the possibility of being wrong and to stick by your guns, then you could always be offended I suppose.

WoshippingJesus do not get me wrong. I am not here to say I am right and you are wrong. I am here to be challenged and to challenge because I believe that the truth is more important than myself, you, and the pride of any man.

March 23, 2007 at 2:38 pm#46667

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2007,11:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,02:29)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2007,05:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 23 2007,14:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2007,19:32)

Yes there is three persons, “One God”!

To WorshippingJesus.

When you pray to God (the Trinity version) pray like this:

“My God in Heaven.
How are you all.
I pray that you will ALL bless me, forgive me, and look after me.”

You see WorhippingJesus, we should be praying to God, not his substance.

However when I pray to God, I am praying to one God. Substance has nothing to do with it because I pray to the Father.

I can only conclude that you pray to the substance if you talk to him as one and refer to him as HIM, HIS, etc.

But if you pray to the Father in Yeshua's name, then you are praying to God through his son. This is what scipture teaches.

You should really think about what you say before you post, especially in using sarcasm and mimicking language.

Its not my business to tell you how to run this forum, but it dosnt shed a good light on you or the forum.

To WorshippingJesus.

I am not ashamed of what I said just as Yeshua wasn't ashamed when he called the Pharisees a bunch of blood suckers. I used an illustration that was appropriate regarding the point I was making.

If you say God is triune and you can pray to all 3 of them, then how come when Trinitarians pray to God, they don't say “How are you all”, “can you all bless me” and that sort of thing.

Your theology demands that you pray in such a way if you believe in a multiple person one substance God.

Yet you pray to God as if there was only one person because that is what we see in scripture. i.e., that God is called by the following pronouns, Him, His, He, etc.

Isn't that strange? Isn't that a contradiction?

Isn't that also strange? The same thing happened when Yeshua spoke. He also challenged the religious and some of them tried to find an accusation against him.

But if you wished to avoid the possibility of being wrong and to stick by your guns, then you could always be offended I suppose.

You say…

Quote

I am not ashamed of what I said just as Yeshua wasn't ashamed when he called the Pharisees a bunch of blood suckers. I used an illustration that was appropriate regarding the point I was making.

I never mentioned the word ashamed!

t8. You started this by making flamatory remarks concerning my prayer life which you know nothing about.

Then you proceed to give me a bunch of questions without even addressing one of mine. I will be happy to answer you.

Why dont you answer mine?

You say…

Quote

If you say God is triune and you can pray to all 3 of them, then how come when Trinitarians pray to God, they don't say “How are you all”, “can you all bless me” and that sort of thing.

I dont remember the last time I asked God “How are you doing”?

Usually I am praising him and thanking him for what he has done.

Is this something you ask the Father?

“Hey Father how are you today? Excuse me Jesus Im talking to the Father now”.

Im not trying to be sarcastic but thats what you sound like.

So I ask you again t8 the following questions, and if you have an answer please reply, because I am confused as to what you believe, and obviously your confused as to what I believe.

1. Are you saying that you have no fellowship with the Son?

And if you do, how do you fellowship with him without “prayer” to him?

2. Do you believe that when someone “calls on the name of the Lord”, “Jesus”, and they repent and he comes into their heart, that at that point they should never pray to Jesus again?

3. Also since Jesus is no longer “physically here”, are men suppose to cease from coming to him, and if not how do they come to him without prayer?

4. What about the Spirit that prays in us?

Rom 8:26 NIV
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the S
pirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

This is why he is called the Comforter!

One last question t8.

Do you have any writings on the Holy Spirit here on this forum, and if not, why?

I hope you can give me an answer to these questions. And I will be happy to answer yours.

I am not trying to provoke you or anything, but I sincerely would like to know your opinion about these questions.

Blessings

March 23, 2007 at 11:32 pm#46668

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,10:38)

You say…
Quote
I am not ashamed of what I said just as Yeshua wasn't ashamed when he called the Pharisees a bunch of blood suckers. I used an illustration that was appropriate regarding the point I was making.

I never mentioned the word ashamed!

t8. You started this by making flamatory remarks concerning my prayer life which you know nothing about.

To WorshippingJesus.

I am sorry if you interpreted it that way. I was simply pointing out that if you believe in the Trinity why don't you pray to plurality as surely you are praying to the persons not the substance. 3 persons 1 substance. Do you see that?

If you consider this inflammatory, then I can assure you that it is the Trinity doctrine that is inflammatory, not my statement, because I was neither condoning such a practice or saying that you actually do this.

I was simply pointing out that if your doctrine is the Trinity, then if you really believe it, why don't you pray to the Trinity (them/3 persons) with the correct language structure.

I think that it was a fair enough thing to bring up and my only intention was to show how ridiculous and confusing the Trinity doctrine is.

Do you understand why now?

March 23, 2007 at 11:35 pm#46669

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,10:38)

I never mentioned the word ashamed!

To WorshippingJesus.

True.

But if you say that I am shedding bad light on this BB, then I use such a word in context to say that I believe that I am not and hence why I am not ashamed of my stance and post to you.

You then say that I do not answer your questions. But the fact is I know it is pointless.

If a man cannot give you an answer and then throws other questions at you, it is simply a diversionary tactic and I don't have time to play along right now.

Tell you what. If you tell me why you do not call the Trinity “them” when you pray, even though that would be the correct language structure to use, (if you believed that God was made up of 3 persons), then I will give you an answer to the questions you gave me.

How does that sound?

March 24, 2007 at 12:01 am#46670

Is 1:18

Participant

Who did Paul pray to in 2 Corinthians 12:8?

March 24, 2007 at 12:24 am#46671

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 24 2007,00:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,10:38)

I never mentioned the word ashamed!

t8. You started this by making flamatory remarks concerning my prayer life which you know nothing about.

To WorshippingJesus.

I was simply pointing out that if your doctrine is the Trinity, then if you really believe it, why don't you pray to the Trinity (them/3 persons).

I think that it was a fair enough thing to bring up and my only intention was to show how ridiculous and confusing the Trinity doctrine is.

Do you understand what I am saying?

I understand exactly what you are saying.

But I think you are trying to seperate the substance of God from himself. Which is Impossible.

God is Spirit. I have fellowship with God in the Spirit.

What does that mean? Is it gramatically incorect to refer to God as God?

Does a title like Father or Jesus always have to be attched to my prayer or praise?

If I know the Father through the Son and have the Spirit in me and pray…

Pss 61:
1 Hear my cry, O God; attend unto my prayer.
2 From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock [that] is higher than I.

Will God not hear my cry?

Or do you believe I have to ritualistically tack Jesus name on it or directly refer to the title Father.

If I am in a hardship and call on Jesus to help me, is that wrong.?

What about Stephen?

If the Spirit is praying through me is it wrong if I fail to tack Jesus on the end of it.

Yes I do pray to the Father and Jesus, and through the Holy Spirit I have fellowship by the Spirit with the Father and the Son.

That may not sound politically correct. But I believe it is scriptural.

And if the Father and Christ dwells in me by that “ONE Spirit” then yes the very essence and substance of God dwells in me, because “God lives in me”

You cant seperate God from his substance. God is Spirit.

The Spirit is his substance and essence.

Am I missing something here. Is there supposed to be some creed or religios prayer that we are to pray and tack Jesus name on it and it is job well done?

We are in the living God and he is in us. We can talk to him like we talk to our Father because yes he is our Father.

I am not saying using the name of Jesus is wrong, but it should not be some canned formula, or it is just words.

God looks at the heart, it is not always how we pray but how he sees our heart.

Matt 18:19
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Another one of those Trinity scriptures.

Notice, their prayer is answered because they are gathered in his name and Jesus is in their midst. Imagine that.

I did a search to see if I could find a scripture that shows where the disciples prayed a prayer and then said in Jesus name. Couldnt find it. The scriptures mention the “Name of Jesus” for Preaching and Baptism and Healing and Miracles.

Anyway you still didnt answer my questions t8?

And I probably havnt answered yours.

Blessings!

March 24, 2007 at 12:33 am#46666