Trinity – t8's proof text #1

[Worshipping Jesus]

NH

Where is it written that Jesus is “the man from heaven”?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:41)

NH Where is it written that Jesus is “the man from heaven”?

Hi w,
1Cor 15[kjv]
” 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.”
compare
ylt
” 47The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven; “
nasb
“47The first man is (A)from the earth, (B)earthy; the second man is from heaven.”
niv
“47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.”
esv
“47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2007,19:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 14 2007,18:41) NH Where is it written that Jesus is “the man from heaven”? Hi w, 1Cor 15[kjv] ” 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.” compare ylt ”  47The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven; “ nasb “47The first man is (A)from the earth, (B)earthy; the second man is from heaven.” niv “47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.” esv “47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.”

NH

So a man was with God and was God? So he had flesh in heaven?

Jesus wasnt a man until he was born a man by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh.

He wasnt the second Adam until he came in the flesh.

Was there 2 Lords in heaven?

Your doctrine is hellish and devilish!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
The man from heaven is as written?
Are you arguing with scripture again?
He came as man and he was from heaven.
He went back to to heaven as a son of Man,
but now in an imperishable body because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

Dan 7
” 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. “

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,06:28)

Hi W, The man from heaven is as written? Are you arguing with scripture again? He came as man and he was from heaven. He went back to to heaven as a son of Man, but now in an imperishable body because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Dan 7 ” 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. “

NH

The scriptures you quote are post ressurection, after his coming in the flesh.

You make inference again. You have no scripture that says Jesus was a “man” with God from eternity!

You betray your own words.

Do you change your mind regularly NH?

Listen to your own words you not to long ago said…

Quote

Hi W, The Word WAS God. He is now the Son of God Do you really think he still is God?

So was he both God and man from eternity?

You continue blasting others on this sight for what you call “Going outside of scripture” and you are the guilteist of all!

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are *unlearned and unstable wrest*, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“You have no scripture that says Jesus was a “man” with God from eternity!”

You have seemingly got muddled again.
I have never said anything like that
so will not need to look for any support
for such is an assumption on your part.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Scripture does not say the Word WAS a man but WAS rather God with God.
I do not know where you get these funny ideas from.
Not from me.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,12:16)

Hi W, Scripture does not say the Word WAS a man but WAS rather God with God. I do not know where you get these funny ideas from. Not from me.

NH

You say…

Quote

Scripture does not say the Word WAS a man but WAS rather God with God.

So he was the God that he was with?

Or was he “another” god with God?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
What do you think?
He certainly was not the God he was with.
That is his Father and he came to reveal Him to us in his vessel.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,10:38)

Hi W, What do you think? He certainly was not the God he was with. That is his Father and he came to reveal Him to us in his vessel.

NH

So like the JWs…

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was “A” God.

So God lied when he said…

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Your Henotheistic belief is simply a sister to the Arians!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You should not put words in the mouth of others.

It is you who shares your findings about Jesus being called God, by God
but you do not seem to be able to grasp the meaning of that,
suggesting, by the use of logic and inference,
he must be part of the God Who calls him God
rather than the Son of God he claimed to be.

What gives?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:35)

Hi W, You should not put words in the mouth of others. It is you who shares your findings about Jesus being called God, by God but you do not seem to be able to grasp the meaning of that, suggesting, by the use of logic and inference, he must be part of the God Who calls him God rather than the Son of God he claimed to be. What gives?

NH

There you go doing a dance.

These are your words…

Quote

Scripture does not say the Word WAS a man but WAS rather God with God. What do you think? He certainly was not the God he was with.

So again I say…

So like the JWs…

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was “A” God.

So God lied when he said…

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Your Henotheistic belief is simply a sister to the Arians!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
So attack is the best form of defense?
It would be better to see how your view of Jesus as another deity fits with scripture?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,12:12)

Hi W, So attack is the best form of defense? It would be better to see how your view of Jesus as another deity fits with scripture?

NH

No attack.

The word needs no defence!

You have no answer. You just dance around the truth.

The truth is your doctrine does not match Hebrew Monotheistic scriptures which clearly state there is none beside him.

Look again.

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

The only explanation for the Word being with God and the Word being God is YHWH/Yeshua came in the flesh.

Again your Henotheistic belief is simply a sister to the Arians!

[NickHassan]

Hi Worshipping Jesus,
Neither should you worship any other God but the Father, as Jesus did.
Jesus, and others, being called God, by God
does not give any man permission
to worship that being.

[Proclaimer]

WJ.

Remember this:

Jesus gave the greatest rebukes to religious men who taught more from the traditions of men than truth.

He was actually quite friendly with sinners.

I think the reason here is that sinners were easily able to repent, but the proud teachers of tradition didn't think they needed to repent.

A hard and stubborn heart only leads to rebuke.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,12:56)

Hi Worshipping Jesus, Neither should you worship any other God but the Father, as Jesus did. Jesus, and others, being called God, by God does not give any man permission to worship that being.

He that honors, reveres, bows down to, praises, and worships the Son also praises and worships the Father.

For he who “Loves the Son also loves the Father”.

Jn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, *If God were your Father*, *ye would love me*: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, *even as* they honour the Father. He that *honoureth not* the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Honour 'timao' which means;

1) To estimate, fix the value

a) For the value of something belonging to one's self

2) To honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate

NH. Do you put the same value on the Jesus as God?

Revere means;
to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor

Synonyms; REVERE, REVERENCE, VENERATE, WORSHIP, ADORE

You should get used to bowing the knee to our Lord and God Yeshua, for the Father says let all the Angels worship him, and also the Father says “hear ye him”.

Phil 2:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

There is going to be a lot of praising Jesus there.

Rev 5:
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, **Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing**.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped (proskuneo) him that liveth for ever and ever.

Notice the same praise that’s given to the Father is given to the Lamb.

“Worship”, proskuneo, the same word Jesus used to describe worship to the Father!

Lk 24:52
And they worshipped (proskuneod) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship (proskuneo) him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth.

Matt 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (proskuneod) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (Proskuneod) him.

This is true honour to the Father and to Yeshua!

NH. Challenge for you.

Show me one scripture where (Proskuneo) is practiced on Jesus and was discouraged or rebuked!

Also, give me one example in scripture where true (Proskuneo) was ascribed to someone other than God or Jesus and was not discouraged.

In fact give me one example of scripture where (Proskuneo) is practiced in a true sence on anyone but the Father and the Son!

They are worshipping him in heaven and you should too. He is worthy of our praise!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ June 20 2007,16:07)

WJ. Remember this: Jesus gave the greatest rebukes to religious men who taught more from the traditions of men than truth. He was actually quite friendly with sinners. I think the reason here is that sinners were easily able to repent, but the proud teachers of tradition didn't think they needed to repent. A hard and stubborn heart only leads to rebuke.

t8

Exactly!!!

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,16:29)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,12:56) Hi Worshipping Jesus, Neither should you worship any other God but the Father, as Jesus did. Jesus, and others, being called God, by God does not give any man permission to worship that being. He that honors, reveres, bows down to, praises, and worships the Son also praises and worships the Father. For he who “Loves the Son also loves the Father”. Jn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, *If God were your Father*, *ye would love me*: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Jn 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, *even as* they honour the Father. He that *honoureth not* the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Honour 'timao' which means; 1) To estimate, fix the value a) For the value of something belonging to one's self 2) To honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate NH. Do you put the same value on the Jesus as God? Revere means; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor Synonyms; REVERE, REVERENCE, VENERATE, WORSHIP, ADORE You should get used to bowing the knee to our Lord and God Yeshua, for the Father says let all the Angels worship him, and also the Father says “hear ye him”. Phil 2: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. There is going to be a lot of praising Jesus there. Rev 5: 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, **Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing**. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped (proskuneo) him that liveth for ever and ever. Notice the same praise that’s given to the Father is given to the Lamb. “Worship”, proskuneo, the same word Jesus used to describe worship to the Father! Lk 24:52 And they worshipped (proskuneod) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship (proskuneo) him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. Matt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (proskuneod) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Matt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (Proskuneod) him. This is true honour to the Father and to Yeshua! NH. Challenge for you. Show me one scripture where (Proskuneo) is practiced on Jesus and was discouraged or rebuked! Also, give me one example in scripture where true (Proskuneo) was ascribed to someone other than God or Jesus and was not discouraged. In fact give me one example of scripture where (Proskuneo) is practiced in a true sence on anyone but the Father and the Son! They are worshipping him in heaven and you should too. He is worthy of our praise!

Hi W,
You now only offer two gods.
Is this a paradigm shift?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,16:29)

Jn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, *If God were your Father*, *ye would love me*: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

To WJ.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

That is if God were your Father.

But God for you includes 2 others. God for you is 'triune' which is foreign, and not 'one' as it is written. The God you teach is a substance. But the one true God is the Father and to argue against that is to argue against scritpure.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

If God were your Father you would believe that Jesus came from God.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

But you believe that God is not the Father but a group that includes the Father. Therefore you truly do not believe that Christ came from God, you believe he IS God.

This scripture you quoted is true and your words and understanding do no align with it. You thought you could quote it to strengthen your teachings, but the scripture caught you in your craftiness.

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