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Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2007,21:49) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 12 2007,21:43) Maybe you should spend some time wondering about such things. After all the Bible solemnly warns against polytheism. To affirm that more than one divine beings exist is polytheism in it's essence.
I take it then that you will not partake in divine nature yourself for fear of being another God and thereby making yourself a Polytheist too.Well that is your story.
But I choose to partake in divine nature and to also believe that the Father is the only true God.
If that is perplexing to you, then perhaps it is a mystery. Or perhaps you use your mind too much and it is woefully inadequate in understanding the things of God.
Whatever you say, I will still believe that there is one God the Father and that I can partake in divine nature. Call me what you like. I care less. I only care about receiving that which God has promised.
If your doctrine makes you miss out on things, then you only have yourself to blame, right?
You're misinterpreting the scripture….Quote T8 may also use 2 Peter 1:4, where man are said to become partakers in the divine nature”, to try to add credibility to the notion that Yeshua is a lesser god with YHWH’s nature. But this verse cannot be used this way without reading far too much into it’s conveyance. Being a “partaker” in the divine nature does not, to my mind, intimate that the divine nature is to be permanently and irrevocably conferred on the believer, that it will become intrinsic to us. It seems to me that the very word he used (partakers – koinonos) argues against this notion. Someone does not become, or take on, the thing in which they “partake” in. When Paul warns the Corinthians against being “participants” with demons, it's obvious from the context that he does not imagine there is a tangible risk that that demonic nature would become intrinsic to them. And certainly the semantic range of “koinonos” does allow for the idea of participating, or fellowshipping in, something temporarily. Being a “partaker” in the context of 2 Peter 1:4 may simply mean that believers would one day experience YHWH. Alternatively, it may very well be a present-tense reference to believers taking on the qualities and attributes of Christ, by virtue of us being “born again” into Him. I think this later interpretation is supported by the later part of the verse: “For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”
The past tense word “escaped” denotes something that has already taken place. Peter, far from anticipating something, appears to be affirming that the “participation” provides a means of escape in this life from the “corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”. This theme that is pressed even further in the next verse – “Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge”. The context here switches to the present tense, the here and now, and the verbs Peter used were manifestly present tense. Many scholars hold to this view. At any rate there is more than enough doubt in the verse as to invalidate it’s viability as a supporting crutch for t8’s overtly Mormonesque view that we will be become divine beings in the next life. We are human and will always be as such. This notion of the post-resurrection deification of believers runs completely counter to biblical revelation on monotheism. So an appeal to this verse as a means of equating Yeshua’s “divine” nature with ours, and thereby down playing it, is also evokes polytheism, only from another angle.
There are not just options in life Isaiah, there are also different paradigms. Sometimes the paradimn you are in may have different options, but it may be the wrong paradimn.
I will ask the same question you have:
If Yeshua was a man then he would have to be either:
1. More man than Adam.
2. As much of a man as Adam
3. Less man than the Adam.What is your answer?
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2007,22:02) There are not just options in life Isaiah, there are also different paradigms. Sometimes the paradimn you are in may have different options, but it may be the wrong paradimn. I will ask the same question you have:
If Yeshua was a man then he would have to be either:
1. More man than Adam.
2. As much of a man as Adam
3. Less man than the Adam.What is your answer?
Number 2.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 12 2007,22:02) “For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”
Oh I see. That somehow means that we cannot partake in divine nature?The second part doesn't nullify the first.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 12 2007,22:04) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2007,22:02) There are not just options in life Isaiah, there are also different paradigms. Sometimes the paradimn you are in may have different options, but it may be the wrong paradimn. I will ask the same question you have:
If Yeshua was a man then he would have to be either:
1. More man than Adam.
2. As much of a man as Adam
3. Less man than the Adam.What is your answer?
Number 2.
OK.Now what about yourself.
Are you less, the same, or more of a man than Adam?
See how easy it is to give a direct answer to a direct question? You ought to try it some time…..
Gotta go.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2007,22:05) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 12 2007,22:04) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2007,22:02) There are not just options in life Isaiah, there are also different paradigms. Sometimes the paradimn you are in may have different options, but it may be the wrong paradimn. I will ask the same question you have:
If Yeshua was a man then he would have to be either:
1. More man than Adam.
2. As much of a man as Adam
3. Less man than the Adam.What is your answer?
Number 2.
OK.Now what about yourself.
Are you less, the same, or more of a man than Adam?
Less, i'm only 82.35% human…..
Seriously t8, how would you expect me to answer such an ill-conceived question…..and I think I see where this line of questioning is going, I'll save you the trouble by preempting it. Yeshua, Adam and myself are all human. None of us are any more or less human than the other. As to Yeshua's humanity He is just like me….but as to His deity He is nothing like me at all. For instance, all the fullness of Deity does not dwell in my bodily form, but it does in Yeshua (Col 2:9). I am not an exact representation of the Father's substance/essence, but Yeshua is (Heb 1:3). I am not capable of upholding the entire created order by the power of my word, but Yeshua is (Heb 1:3). I cannot not claim for myself an exclusively divine title like First and Last (Rev 1:17, 2:9) or YHWH (Zech Ch. 14), but Yeshua can and does. I did not preexist my conception as “God”, but Yeshua did (John 1:1c, 14). I will never fulfill a prophecy YHWH makes of Himself, but Yeshua can and did (John 19:37 cf. Zech 12:10). The list goes on…..
BTW, how would you answer your questions?
I've been following along…..I think you should answer, Isaiah (I'm interested in your response). These are good questions!
Is1:18 Jesus did have the mind of the Father in Him, otherwise He could not have said;” I speak as the Father taught me.” You are right as far as Jesus preexisted with the Father. But I have to tread easy when i say that He was God. He was the Son of God. God is a title used for many. Otherwise scripture would contradict it self Eph. 4:6 ….The Father is greater and is above all.” Jesus has a name and so does the Father. Jesus was like Man in every other way, tho. He could have sinned, but He would not ,because He knew what was at stake. That sets Him apart from Us, He was the Son of God. He had all wisdom, we don't, He had all Love etc……We are under His Blood and have received eternal Life, it is a gift from God through Faith in Jesus Christ, so nobody can boast. We should THANK OUR HEAVENLY FATHER AND JESUS EVERY DAY FOR THE LOVE THAT THEY HAVE FOR MANKIND. THAT HE SEND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO DIE FOR OUR SINS. So we can live.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 13 2007,21:10) Seriously t8, how would you expect me to answer such an ill-conceived question…..and I think I see where this line of questioning is going, I'll save you the trouble by preempting it. Yeshua, Adam and myself are all human. None of us are any more or less human than the other. As to Yeshua's humanity He is just like me….but as to His deity He is nothing like me at all.
The ill conceived question is but the same type of question you asked me.
So by your own admission, your question is ill conceived.Here is your question again:
If Yeshua was divine (that's your affirmation) then He would have to be either:
1. More divine than the Father.
2. As divine as the Father
3. Less divine than the Father.
I can't see any other options. Correct me if i'm wrong…..Here is my question:
If Yeshua was a man then he would have to be either:
1. More man than Adam.
2. As much of a man as Adam
3. Less man than the Adam.
What is your answer?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 13 2007,21:10) Seriously t8, how would you expect me to answer such an ill-conceived question…..and I think I see where this line of questioning is going, I'll save you the trouble by preempting it. Yeshua, Adam and myself are all human. None of us are any more or less human than the other. As to Yeshua's humanity He is just like me….but as to His deity He is nothing like me at all.
OK Isaiah.So you are exactly the same percentage of man as Yeshua was.
So who is the greater man? You or Yeshua?
I will assume that Yeshua is your answer.So this begs the question of whether nature makes one greater than another or is it identity.
E.g., Yeshua and yourself at some stage have both been 100% man. So why is Yeshua a greater man than you?It is not because he has/had a greater human nature that makes him better because he partook in the same nature (admittedly without sin), rather it is WHO he is, not WHAT he is/was that makes him greater.
Now one nature is greater than another that is true, but if 2 beings have the same nature, then it is no longer nature that determines who is greater or who ranks where, rather it is the identity of a being that makes him greater.
Now if Yeshua has divine nature from his Father, does that make him a partaker in some lesser divine nature, making him a lesser divine as you imply that I might be saying?
Or is it the fact that the Father is God and Jesus is of God that makes the Father greater?If the Father is the originator of divine nature and Yeshua the recipient, then yes the giver is greater than the receiver.
Therefore is there any point in saying that nature (inherited or not) is equal, less or greater?
No, there is no point in arguing such things.It is the fact that one is the giver and the other the recipient that stand out.
Now if I partake in divine nature, that is also not to say that I am partaking in some second rate divine nature.
But as pointed out before, I too am a recipient and by that alone the giver is greater than I.
Also my partaking in divine nature will never make me YHWH, but you teach that Yeshua is YHWH because he has divine nature.Christ is a divine being, but he is not the only true God, rather he is of the only true God.
Having divine nature or partaking in divine nature doesn't make someone God himself, just the same as having or partaking in human nature doesn't make one Adam or Christ (the son of man).
The nature can be the same, but inherited identity is what defines rank, as well as the possibility of character and works in our case.
But your whole argument rests upon the assumption that nature makes one the same being or same identity. This is a false.
I am man, but I am not Adam.
Jesus having divine nature, doesn't make him YHWH.
Jesus having human nature didn't make him Adam either.YHWH, Yeshua, Adam are identities, not natures.
As I have said many times before, if you knew the difference between identity and nature, you wouldn't argue for the Trinity doctrine.
You teach that God is a substance/nature and all who have that nature or substance are the same God.
But God in the bible is not identified as a substance, he is a HIM and a HE. He is not a quality or nature. Rather quality and nature are of him.
Look at it another way.
God is Spirit.
God is the Father of spirits.
Angels are spirits.Are angels, YHWH?
Are angels called “elohim”?t8. Word games are no match for a “thus saith the Lord”.
So tell us t8.
Why is Jesus called “The mighty God”?
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Or do you have “another jesus”? The Jehovah's Witnesses “jesus”
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
CB;
God manifested himself in Christ and gave him all things. All power was given to Christ including the names of Christ. You're misreading Isaiah 9:6. What does it say? Unto us a Son is “given” the government “shall be” his name “shall be called”… Get the idea. Your read is- Unto us will come the Mighty God, Unto us will come the Everlasting Father. Can you see the difference? All the names given to Christ were just that – given to him. If the Father gave the names to Christ then Christ must not of had the names prior otherwise it would not have been necessary to give him the names. Moreover, it would have been an impossibility.
The reason why you see Christ exalted in the New Testament is because he was not exalted prior. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. What did God do? He manifested himself in Christ while retaining his own identity but decreeing divine characteristics upon his Son because he is the heir of all things.
I suggest you slow way down reading the scriptures so that you can perceive what God is saying, not man.
Take care.
Mr. Steve
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 14 2007,23:17) t8. Word games are no match for a “thus saith the Lord”. So tell us t8.
Why is Jesus called “The mighty God”?
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Or do you have “another jesus”? The Jehovah's Witnesses “jesus”
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Hi CultB.
I'm glad you pointed out the word games, I thought it was too and that is why I showed it up for what it was. I will let you and Isaiah argue over that one.
As for your ability to reason, well I doubt that Jesus himself could convince you that 'elohim' and 'theos' are also used in reference to sons.
But then you seem to think as the Jews of the day that Jesus was claiming to be God, except you do not listen to Jesus defense against such an accusation:
John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?I however doubt that Christ will convince you that sons are 'theos' and that he is the true son of God.
Therefore the conclusion is that you are hard of hearing. You have ears but cannot hear and eyes but cannot see.
Do I really have to climb back into your ditch and teach you such things?
May I also remind you that Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah. You cannot prevail against this, it is written.
Thus says the YHWH and the Lord Jesus Christ.
CB;
To which of the word games do you refer? Greek or Hebrew? Or just the questions in English that you can't answer? It's becoming common place that whenever you're cornered someone grabs greek text. They spoke greek in the days of Christ. They rejected him, too.
Mr. Steve
Mr steve
Quote The reason why you see Christ exalted in the New Testament is because he was not exalted prior. Mr Steve. You need to read your Bible with a desire to learn the truth, not with the desire to pervert it.
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Compare
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD (Jehovah) God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.Compare
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
With
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.
HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}
REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}Mr Steve. Read the following very carefully.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
.In other words, they change the Scriptures to mean what they want them to say, But God says in the end it will lead to their own destruction.
Mr Steve. The question is. Will you and the the others continue to pervert the scriptures to your own destruction?
CultB.
You main focus is to bust cults. But as a Christian our main concern is to follow Christ.
Therefore it is fitting that the thing you focus on the most, is the very thing that you are caught up in yourself.
You become that which you focus on.
Light overcomes darkness. Jesus is the light.
Being led by doing the opposite of cults is cult behaviour too.
The true way is to follow Christ. Jesus said he was the son of God and the Messiah. YHWH also said it. And you cannot prevail against it. It is written.
t8
Quote You main focus is to bust cults. But as a Christian our main concern is to follow Christ. t8. Your doctrine is not from Christianity. It is masonic.
LOOK!http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
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