Trinity &#8211; Is 1:18&#039;s Proof Text #3

Participant

Quote (david @ April 20 2009,09:58)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 18 2009,15:58)

Hi David. Let's make this really straight forward. Can you please find for me all the verses in the New Testament supporting your implied assertion that the Father of Yeshua will “come for battle” to “fight against those nations”, as described in Zechariah 14:1-6. Make a list of them all, and i'll then do the same. Let's get the ball rolling on this.

I wonder why you now want to limit it to the new testament. Is it because if we consider THE WHOLE BIBLE there are many many many more times where Jehovah is said to fight and war and battle against the nations?

hmmm.

Why stop at limiting it to the NT? Why not limit it to the chapter of the NT that suits you most? Or even the 3 or 4 verses.

I think I know why– The NT itself says: “ALL scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for…..setting things straight.”

If you want to set this straight, we cannot limit our search to the arbitary perameters that will meet your goal, can we?

david

Hi David

That is because the NT reveals the Old.

Isa 1:18 makes a valid argument. The NT reveals the OT.

The NT shows that Jesus is YWHW revealed.

He is the “visible image of the invisable YHWH”.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

Since we can show you with the OT and NT scriptures that Jesus and YHWH are the same, then you are building a strawman, becasue you can't show us how with the same scriptures in the OT and NT that he is not.

Quote (david @ April 20 2009,09:58)

Yes and who is it that we see in the NT that is battleing against the nations? This lines up with the whole council of God beautifully.

April 20, 2009 at 3:57 pm#128157

Participant

Quote (david @ April 20 2009,10:24)

Quote

Like I said – to make it straightforward. We could use OT passages but then we more than likely would not agree on the identity of the person described as YHWH.

Are you seious? You have to get a better Bible–one that doesn't take God's name out.
Every one of the scriptures I would find would say “YHWH” or Jehovah in it. When we look at the NT, we can't be certain about those “lord” and “god” references, because it seems the Jews wanted that name removed. We know they did in the Hebrew scriptures. We know it is still removed in 90% of Bible's today. But even throwing that out, are you serious?

If we use the Bible as a whole, THERE ARE LITERALLY 25 TIMES AS MANY REFERENCES TO “JEHOVAH” FIGHTING THE NATIONS AS THERE ARE TO JESUS.

Let me repeat that–Literally, 25 times!

David

This sounds weak. Now we have to cry corruption by the transators!

I suppose we should use the more perfect version the NWT right?

Then show us the scritpures where you think it should be Jehovah instead of Lord or Jesus.

Remember David it has to be clear that it is the Father and not just your inference.

Come on David the challenge has been made.

April 20, 2009 at 6:51 pm#128170

Participant

Hi WJ,
So the vessel of Jesus reveals God within.
Indeed God has visited His people in the vessel of His son.
But the vessel was a man we can follow and not a god or a god/man.

God was with him and anointed Him with His Holy Spirit.[Acts 10]

April 20, 2009 at 9:12 pm#128180

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2009,06:51)

Hi WJ,
So the vessel of Jesus reveals God within.
Indeed God has visited His people in the vessel of His son.
But the vessel was a man we can follow and not a god or a god/man.

God was with him and anointed Him with His Holy Spirit.[Acts 10]

Hi NH

Thank you for the information that to you Jesus is just a funnel.

To you he is just a mere man.

To you he is just another anointed Prophet that you follow.

Since you say you follow Jesus because he is a man, can you explain to me how that works?

Jesus is not here in the flesh now is he? So how do you follow him?

I thought we were to give unbridled devotion to God only?

I thought our fellowship is with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Your implication that Jesus is just a funnel that we can follow and therefore we cannot follow God is false. How did the Hebrews follow God before Jesus came as a man?

April 20, 2009 at 9:44 pm#128182

Participant

Hi WJ,
Was Jesus a man?

April 20, 2009 at 10:08 pm#128184

Participant

Hi WJ,
Was Jesus a prophet?

April 20, 2009 at 10:10 pm#128185

Participant

Hi WJ,
We do fellowship with two in the Spirit of God.
Can you do so if you think God is not the Father and Jesus is not the Son of God?

April 20, 2009 at 10:13 pm#128186

Participant

Hi WJ,
I am not surprised you need to ask how to follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
He was a man just like you, Spiritually anointed, just as you could be.
He did not worship himself as god as you seem to do.
We should follow him and worship God.
We can follow a man.

April 20, 2009 at 10:17 pm#128187

Participant

Hi WJ,
Did the hebrews follow God?
They were given to follow the sacred words of God.
Those words pointed to the coming of a man, a prophet, who would save men.
Jesus was that man whom God was with and who was anointed by God and filled with grace and truth.

April 20, 2009 at 11:04 pm#128195

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2009,10:13)

Hi NH

Where did I ask how do I follow Jesus?

I asked how do you follow him?

And it is obvious that you do follow a mere man!

April 20, 2009 at 11:15 pm#128198

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2009,10:17)

Then what about Enoch, and Noah, and Moses and the Prophets that heard the word of God without a man.

We live in the age of the New Covenant. We have no need that any man teach us because we have God's Spirit in us.

Whos is in you NH, is it a mere man? Or is it The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Which one? When you can tell me the difference then you may have a point. Otherwise you are just blowing manmade steam in the name of Biblical Christianity which IMO has nothing to do with the Bible.

Jesus is not just a mere man as you suppose?

Open your eyes man. He is the Spirit of the Lord, for the Lord is that Spirit!

April 20, 2009 at 11:17 pm#128199

Participant

Hi WJ,
Does everyone who has tasted of the Spirit teach the truth now?
Why is there so much disagreement and so many divisions?
Why do men teach beyond the words of Jesus?
Carnal men still rule the religions of men

April 21, 2009 at 10:11 pm#128361

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2009,10:13)

Nick,
When Thomas addressed Jesus as “My Lord and my God” Jesus did not reject the names or the worship.

thinker

April 21, 2009 at 10:15 pm#128362

Participant

Hi TT,
Why should he?
He is the Lord and God was in him.

Luke 20:13
“The owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.'

April 21, 2009 at 10:17 pm#128364

Is 1:18

Participant

That's right Thinker, and when transliterated from the Greek it's even clearer:-

ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou = “the Lord of me, and the God of me”

April 21, 2009 at 10:27 pm#128371

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Exactly.
Just as he taught Thomas in Jn 14 when anyone saw the Son they saw God IN HIM.

2cor5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

April 22, 2009 at 1:28 am#128415

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2009,10:15)

Hi TT,
Why should he?
He is the Lord and God was in him.

Luke 20:13
“The owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.'

Nick,
You are an incipient trinitarian. Why fight it?

thinker

April 22, 2009 at 2:40 am#128436

Participant

Hi TT,
You need to decide whether or not scripture is the basis of what you believe.

April 22, 2009 at 3:29 pm#128509

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2009,10:17)

That's right Thinker, and when transliterated from the Greek it's even clearer:-

ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou = “the Lord of me, and the God of me”

Yes indeed!

thinker

April 22, 2009 at 3:33 pm#128510