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Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 30 2007,03:26) Quote (charity @ Aug. 28 2007,06:17) Where is kejonn???
Kejonn is in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico on a cruise ship
. We have a day at sea before we dock tomorrow morning so I thought I'd purchase some internet minutes and catch up on some stuff. Beyond that though, I've already addressed Isaiah 9:6 on numerous occasions, but CB chooses to ignore it so I'll not try again.But as a short answer “name shall be called” is not the same as “shall be called”. Is YHWH's name “God”? I don't think so…therefore, no proof whatsoever of Yahshua's divinity in Is 9:6.
Wow. Sail on… ship ahoy; thanks for the note in a bottle kejonn
so cool !!! see ya round soon!!
First Nick, then kejonn. I am the only moderator left.
I need a holiday. Fiji sounds nice.
I did a cruise a few years back to New Caledonia.
There was this island there called Isle of Pines. It had wow factor.
Captain Cook even called it the Jewel of the South Pacific. Funny thing was the French shipped their criminals there many years ago. They were called the “wretches in paradise”.Here are some pics (without the crims):
http://www.virtualoceania.net/newcaledonia/photos/coast/isleofpines/t8 take it while you can, believe me time passes very quickly. Some might think I am kidding, but I am not.
Peace and Love Mrs.Yeah time goes by quickly alright.
Sometimes I think time is one of the greatest gifts we have.
It is like currency and we should be wise on how we spend it.
=Quote (charity @ Aug. 30 2007,23:22) Is nick away crusing also?
I think he is in Europe. Probably not on a cruise though.OK, the accusers are back in full force and as I said, here is the post in the other debate that belongs here.
==============================================================================To WJ, CultB, and Isaiah (aka the Man Trinity, 3 beings one nature).
Well then, CultB should be complaining that I am slow to reply, not that I do not reply. He says I do not reply because I am scared. What a load of cobblers. Even if I am slow to reply, it doesn't mean that is a bad thing. God maybe slow to fulfill promises too, but he is not slack, is he?
Psalm 82:6
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'You seem to ignore the part about sons. Look again. Am I to ignore the second part of the sentence because the judges were wicked? And if you look at Jesus reply he also says that they accuse him of blasphemy because he says that he is God's son. He didn't say God (himself) as you and the accusing Jews did.
John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?See that is the ironic part. You are like the Jews that are mentioned in the above scripture. Theos is used in reference to sons, whether you like it or not. The Old Testament says so and Jesus confirmed it by quoting “you are gods” and then saying that he was the son of God and therefore the blasphemy charge was misdirected.
So you guys should listen to Jesus once in a while. Especially you WJ. You worship Jesus but you do not listen to him.
Anyway I have mentioned this before to you guys, but here it is again in case you missed it.
t8
You say…
Quote
So you guys should listen to Jesus once in a while. Especially you WJ. You worship Jesus but you do not listen to him.No. I do not listen to your interpretation. Jesus never said “you are gods”.
Here Ill post what I previosly said and let the readers judge if Jesus is saying the same thing you say and what satan says about men in the garden.
T8
You said…
Quote
Yet Jesus said “You are gods”.I suppose that he was wrong was he?
Are you serious? Do you think that Jesus is promoting Polytheism by quoting the Psalmist in Pss 82:6.
Pss 82:6 was a prophesy about wicked ungodly men. Jesus was rebuking them for their hypocrisy for accusing him for saying he was one with the Father therefore making himself equal to God, when their law said that those wicked men were gods.
If you beleve that Jesus is promoting Polytheism and believes that men are gods, then this is what you are saying of our Lord.
1. Jesus is a Polytheist and like the greeks he believed in other gods!
2. Jesus is ignorant of the Hebrew faith in only One God!
3. Jesus was ignorant of the Hebrew scriptures!
4. Jesus is promoting men calling men gods!
Do you think Jesus knew the following scriptures?
Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.Exod 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.So obviously your interpretation of what Jesus was saying in quoting Jn 10:34 and Pss 82:6 is not correct or you have a contradiction.
Can you give me an example where any of the Apostles of our Lord ever mentioned or called any being like an angel or a king or a man “a god” (theos) in a true sense? Henotheism is not found in the scriptures t8. What were called gods are not gods at all, but were false.
You said…
Quote
You differ with Jesus.He quoted this verse:
Psalm 82:6
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'It is plain that you differ with Jesus.
Look at Jesus words and then look at yours.
In fact I will do it for you.
No. it is you who differs with Jesus and the Apostles. You accuse Jesus of Polytheism.
But the Hebrews didn’t believe like you t8.
I quote a previous post on another thread…
“Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:Isa 45:14
… Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.So t8, based on the above scriptures do you insist that there is any gods in any sense?
Jer 2:11
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.T8, you have a huge hole in your theology.
For you that there was someone beside the Father, who is in a sense god or divine yet the scriptures says there is “None Beside him”, and “none like him”.
You also claim that God created all things through this other being (which you have yet to classify what he is), called Jesus, when the Hebrew scriptures are clear that there is no other agent beside himself that created all things.
Look and see once again…
Jn 1:1
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,And yet we read by a strict Monotheistic Jew…
John.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and *without him was not any thing made that was made*.As clear as the nose on ones face!
End of quote..
The Apostle Paul said…
1 Cor 8:
Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”5For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—6yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.So unless you believe that John and Thomas and Paul and the writer of Hebrews and others were calling Jesus a “so called god”, then your interpretation of Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28 and Heb 1:10 and Jude 1:25 and Titus 2:13 and John 10:34 is wrong.
Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.So please tell us t8, is Jesus a Polytheist? If there are ot
her gods then what do you do about the above scriptures that clearly show there is only “One God” and no other?Its not even to be found in our mouths!
t8
Did our Lord agree with satan?
You said…
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 25 2007,23:12) Oh BTYW WJ. Am I to assume that you agree that you differ with Christ in the following?
Jesus Worshipping Jesus “You are gods”. All gods are not gods at all
t8Deception again. Jesus never said “You are gods”, did he? You can imply that if you want but you do the same thing that you accuse me of, adding to the scriptures. You are making inference.
Jesus is quoting the Psalmist!
Anyway, did Jesus agree with satan and your interpretation?
What do you think of what satan said…
Gen 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be **as gods**, knowing good and evil.So why do you preach what satan preached?
This is what you are propagating that Jesus was saying when he was quoting Ps 82:6 which was about wicked men, not “True Sons of God”.
This is what Pss 82:6 says…
82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.82:2
How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.82:3
Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.82:4
Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.82:5
They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.82:8
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.Is Jesus preaching other gods t8?
Jer 2:11
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.Exod 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.Surely you dont believe our Lord is promoting Polytheism or Henotheism do you?
You are accusing Christ of breaking the 1st commandment if you believe this.
Exod 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.If Yeshua is not God but as one of these gods as you are tryng to say, then you break the 1st commandment by bowing down to him and calling him your Lord!
It is dangerous to build ones faith on one scripture especially when their interpretation disagrees with other scriptures.
W.J. Oh, yes Jesus did say what t8 said in
Psalm 82:6 and
John 10:34-36
So God be my witness I just read it in my K.J. Bible.
What is that called what you just did?I don't understand do you ever check on scripture before you make a statement that turns out to be false?
I don't like to get in between others discussions, but this is not right to do W.J.Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 31 2007,17:49) W.J. Oh, yes Jesus did say what t8 said in
Psalm 82:6 and
John 10:34-36
So God be my witness I just read it in my K.J. Bible.
What is that called what you just did?I don't understand do you ever check on scripture before you make a statement that turns out to be false?
I don't like to get in between others discussions, but this is not right to do W.J.Mrs.
Im4truthMaybe you should look at the scripture again before you accuse me of wrong doing…
Jn 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Do you see the “Is it not written in your law, and the If he called them gods?
Jesus didnt say “you are gods”!!!
Jesus is quoting what the Psalmist writes to rebuke them for their hypocrisy for scorning him for saying “I and my Father are one”, therefore making himself God.
He quoted the Pss…
Pss 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.The Psalmist is the one speaking here. Jesus simply quotes him “is it not written in your law?” in rebuke for their hypocrisy.
Notice Jesus didnt say the Father said you are gods either.
“If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came…”
Jesus is not promoting Polytheism.
Do you think Jesus didnt know the scriptures also that says…
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.Exod 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.So obviously t8s interpretation of what Jesus was saying in quoting Jn 10:34 and Pss 82:6 is not correct or you have a contradiction.
What is that called what you just did?
W.J. What is the whole Point. Is it not that you believe in the trinity and t8 does not? Leave me out of your argument. I just gave you scripture. How you interpret that is your problem not mine. I do not believe in the trinity, because I have proven to myself that it is wrong. How? The trinity believes that all three are co-equal. And do not even say, that I am wrong on that, I came out of the Cath. Church and I taught it to 4 of my Children.
The Father is greater then I. Jesus words. You seem to know the scriptures were they are and what they say. That's all folks. That is all I am going to say to you. I will not answer any further. I have no need to, others have tried so hard to make you understand. There is no sense in going on.
In spit I will always say to anybody good Luck, and may God be with you.Peace and Love Mrs.
I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psa 82:1 [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psa 86:8 Among the gods [there is] none like unto thee, O Lord; neither [are there any works] like unto thy works.
Psa 95:3 For the LORD [is] a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psa 96:4 For the LORD [is] great, and greatly to be praised: he [is] to be feared above all gods.
Psa 96:5 For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
Psa 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all [ye] gods.
Psa 97:9 For thou, LORD, [art] high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
Psa 135:5 For I know that the LORD [is] great, and [that] our Lord [is] above all gods.
Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 138:1 [[[A Psalm] of David.]] I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.astonished; changing gods? when their arn't any WJ?
Jer 2:11 Hath a nation changed [their] gods, which [are] yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for [that which] doth not profit.
Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 31 2007,20:12) W.J. What is the whole Point. Is it not that you believe in the trinity and t8 does not? Leave me out of your argument. I just gave you scripture. How you interpret that is your problem not mine. I do not believe in the trinity, because I have proven to myself that it is wrong. How? The trinity believes that all three are co-equal. And do not even say, that I am wrong on that, I came out of the Cath. Church and I taught it to 4 of my Children.
The Father is greater then I. Jesus words. You seem to know the scriptures were they are and what they say. That's all folks. That is all I am going to say to you. I will not answer any further. I have no need to, others have tried so hard to make you understand. There is no sense in going on.
In spit I will always say to anybody good Luck, and may God be with you.Peace and Love Mrs.
Im4truthYou say…
Quote
W.J. What is the whole Point. Is it not that you believe in the trinity and t8 does not? Leave me out of your argument.I never asked you to come in, though you are welcome anytime. This is an open forum. I simply responded to your accusation to me that I had done something wrong!
You say…
Quote
I just gave you scripture. How you interpret that is your problem not mine.Well if a member of the body of Christ has a problem in interpreting scripture, then it is our problem wouldn’t you say?
But how you interpret the scriptures I posted showing there is only “One God” and no other is up to you also!
1 Cor 8:4
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is **no God** but one.You seem to be angry with me. Sorry if I offended you. Do you ever wonder why these kind of emotions are directed at Trinitarians for a perceived falsehood when non-Trinitarians get a pass when they post error. Whats up with that?
You say…
Quote
I do not believe in the trinity, because I have proven to myself that it is wrong.The Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth has shown me the trinity is right, so I guess we will see some day wont we?
You say…
Quote
The trinity believes that all three are co-equal. And do not even say, that I am wrong on that, I came out of the Cath. Church and I taught it to 4 of my Children. The Father is greater then I. Jesus words. You seem to know the scriptures were they are and what they say. That's all folks. That is all I am going to say to you. I will not answer any further. I have no need to, others have tried so hard to make you understand. There is no sense in going on
.
Being co-equal in nature and essence dosnt mean there is not rank.You are greater than your children but they are as human as you are.
For instance Jesus said…
Lk 22:
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.Jesus said that he that sits at meat and is being served is greater, yet the one serving is no less human than the one served.
Jesus came from heaven as the Word who was with God and was God to serve and do the Fathers will, but this does not mean his nature as God is less than the Father for he is the “Image of God”, Col 15. The image of God is no less God or he wouldn’t be his image. We are made in the image of God after “His likeness”, Gen 1:26, but we are not “the Image of God”.
But Jesus….
Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (substance, essence), and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,The president of the USA is greater than any in the USA, however he is no more “man” than any other.
You say…
Quote
In spit I will always say to anybody good Luck, and may God be with you.Peace and Love Mrs.
In spirit I say Blessings to you also. Peace and Love back to you.
WJ;
Are you saying there is a rank within the trinity? Trinitarians love the whole nature and essence talk, but Christ did not speak of such things. This is adding to the word of God. If you really want the truth about the Son of God and his relationship in all perspectives with the Father, the most on point, unambiguous scriptures are those which Christ states in his own words. Jesus describes his relationship with his Father as being fully dependent on him for all things. With respect to what Christ taught as his doctrine he said it was not his but belonged to the Father. You could make a very long list of all the ways that Christ characterized his relationship with the Father. It is much more insightful than analyzing words like “theos” and others. Jesus went to great length in describing his relationship with the Father. Moreover, he said that he was with the Father before coming to earth as God's Son, not the Word. God's Word is a much a part of the essence of Christ as it is to the essence and nature of the Father, if you will. I would encourage you to take a close look at how Christ describes his relationship with the Father.
We make much more of words and phrases than Christ did himself. In one place he said “What's easier to say, thy sins be forgiven or rise up and walk.” The intent behind the respective words is what is spirit and life.
Take Care
Steven
Jesus said “You are theos”.
He said it.
In Psalms it says, you are theos, you are sons…
It's kind of silly to pretend that Jesus never said it and that it doesn't say “sons of the Most High” in the verse he quoted.
And we will be like Jesus. He will call us brethren/brothers. So if Jesus were the Almighty and then he calls us brothers, then that would make us just like him.
But in truth, he is the son of God and we are sons.
God isn't our brother. He is the Father. It is the son who calls us brother.
There is one God, the Father. Here ye.
T8,
Do you think that, given the context of the whole Psalm, Psa 82:6 is ascribing divinity to men? What is it in the context leads you to this conclusion?Psalm 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. 2How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah. 3Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. 4Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. 5They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7″Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.” 8Arise, O God, judge the earth!For it is You who possesses all the nations. 
That is not the argument I am making here. It is simply that the word “theos” was ascribed to them and it says “sons of the Most High”. So saying that Jesus is God Almighty because “theos” is ascribed to him doesn't prove that he is God, because “theos” is used in reference to sons and angels too.
I have said all along that the words “theos” and “elohim” needs to be read in context and with a balanced understanding of other scritpures.
With regards to partaking of divine nature, I mention that too. But whether there is a connection or not doesn't matter as far as looking at how the word “theos” can be used.
The point is that “theos” and “elohim” are not exclusive to Yahweh.
Yes, but you also argue that men will one day be divine and I'm pretty sure you have used this verse in John to support that. Why do you think elohim is used of the Israelite magistrates in Psa 82:6? It's obviously not used to represent any divinity, given that the men are spoken of quite pejoratively. In contrast, when theos is applied to Yeshua it's done in a way where divinity is intended. Even you would concede to this, going by your exegesis of John 1:1. Therefore John 10:34 is not good parallel passage to appeal to, two entirely different meanings for “God” are in view. Can you name a verse in the NT where “theos” is use of Yeshua but where the context unmistakably bears out that divinity is not implied (like Psa 82:6)??
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 22 2007,11:32) Yes, but you also argue that men will one day be divine and I'm pretty sure you have used this verse in John to support that.
I say that we can partake in divine nature.
Whether that actually makes us divine is not is open to discussion.I wouldn't be surprised however. After all eye has not seen and ear has not heard of the wonderful things that God has for those that love him. And yes it is a mystery as to what we will become, but one thing is for sure, we will be like Jesus and he calls us brothers.
It is enough revelation for me to know that we will be like Christ. I am too busy to change my profession to become an Ontologist.
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