- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Tim2 @ June 02 2007,05:12) Regarding substance, I believe definition number 9 comes closest to that of the creeds. Your seeming agreement with CB that the Father and the Son are of the same substance would suggest you agree that they are one Thing, God, Who of course has an independent existence. And given Jesus' affirmation that the Father and He are one, why do you keep trying to make them 2?
Hi Tim2.They are 2 because God has a son. That is 2. The only true God sent his son, that is 2. Even a child can understand that.
If Christ shares God's nature, that doesn't make him God who shares his nature does it?
You should know that God is not a substance. Yes God has a nature, but God isn't defined as the nature.
The Trinity doctrine is really teaching that a substance that existed for all eternity has and spawns 3 persons from within.
Yes humans have nature but when you are talking to me do you talk to my nature or my identity?
You talk to me.
I am t8. My nature is man.
God is the Father. His nature is divine.
But the Trinity reverses this and places emphasis on the nature all the while ignoring that men called God “HIM”, not “IT”.
Do you pray to God's nature or to God himself?
If you hold to the Trinity doctrine, then you should do as that doctrine logically dictates:
i.e., pray to the substance when you pray to the ONE God, or pray to them if you are praying to the persons.
But calling God “HIM” is contradictory to the Trinity doctrine and if you pray to him, you only do so because that is demonstrated and taught in scripture. It doesn't come from the Trinity doctrine does it?
The Trinity Doctrine gives you 2 options. Neither of these options are expressed in the bible and I doubt that you pray to them or to a one substance either.
Quote (t8 @ June 21 2007,20:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,05:52) So God dosnt have substance?
God has a nature if that is what you mean.He shares his nature too, as we will be able to partake of that nature.
Similarly, when I have a son, he shares in my nature. That is he is like me.
Jesus is God's son, so as you would expect, he is a divine being.
So t8. You just said that Jesus is a Divine Being.
Hi CB,
The Son of God is the very image of God.
God calls him[and others]gods.
Why would you argue with God?t8
You say…Quote
They are 2 because God has a son. That is 2. The only true God sent his son, that is 2. Even a child can understand that.
2 what? “A God” and “a smaller god”? or “a God” and “another divine being”?
There was no such being with God. God is “One” t8.
Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a lesser being.
You deny the Hebrew scriptures. Look!Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
You say…
Quote
If Christ shares God's nature, that doesn't make him God who shares his nature does it?
There is no scripture that says Christ “Shares” the nature of God.Jesus ”IS” the express image of the invisible God”! He ”IS” the exact representation of his substance!
2 Peter 1:4 is not the same. Again, when did Jesus “Partake” of Gods divine nature?
You try to make the “Monogenes”, Unique Son of God after our image. A mere man, or something other than.
What is he t8? Is he totally like us in every way?
Is he a mere man like you and I?
He is as the Word says, the Word/ God that came in the flesh!
You say…
Quote
The Trinity doctrine is really teaching that a substance that existed for all eternity has and spawns 3 persons from within.Yes humans have nature but when you are talking to me do you talk to my nature or my identity?
You talk to me.
I am t8. My nature is man.
God is the Father. His nature is divine.
But the Trinity reverses this and places emphasis on the nature all the while ignoring that men called God “HIM”, not “IT”.
Then what is Spirit if its not substance?
You contradict your own words!
You said…
Quote The Father is “who God is”, the Spirit is “what God is”! So the “Spirit” is Gods substance. The Spirit is God! God is Spirit! Jn 4.
You cant have Identity without having substance t8!
It is what you are that makes you who you are!
If I slapped you in the face you would say why did you slap me.
You are “One bieng”, body soul and Spirit! Without the substance of the “dirt” and the breath of God you couldnt exist.
God is Spirit and Spirit is substance. You cant seperate “what God is” from “who God is”!
You say…
Quote
Yes humans have nature but when you are talking to me do you talk to my nature or my identity?
Am I not talking to both? For without your nature as man, then you have no identity. The nature of man is he has ears, eyes, nose, mouth, tongue, brain, hands, feet, legs, spirit, soul, as well as intellect, will, emotiongs.. Could I talk to you if you didnt have any of these things. You cant seperate the identity of God from his nature.This is why it says “God is Spirit”! And guess who the “One Spirit” is t8?
Your Identity and Nature argument is a red herring and simply false logic to explain away scriptures that clearly show who and what God is.
You say…
Quote
If you hold to the Trinity doctrine, then you should do as that doctrine logically dictates:i.e., pray to the substance when you pray to the ONE God, or pray to them if you are praying to the persons.
But calling God “HIM” is contradictory to the Trinity doctrine and if you pray to him, you only do so because that is demonstrated and taught in scripture. It doesn't come from the Trinity doctrine does it?
The Trinity Doctrine gives you 2 options. Neither of these options are expressed in the bible and I doubt that you pray to them or to a one substance either.
Tell me t8. When you go to the Father do you go alone? Or do you go “Through” a lesser being! Now if you pray to the Father thruogh another that you call your lord and master then you are committing Idolatry and breaking the first and second commandments! You have 2 Lords and Masters!
God says there is “No other beside him”.
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,How do you explain this t8.
Did God create all things by himself?
Hi W,
Indeed there is for us no other God but the Father.
But you say we should also worship our Lord,
the IMAGE and EXACT REPRESENTATION of God.
Why?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2007,10:11) Hi W,
Indeed there is for us no other God but the Father.
But you say we should also worship our Lord,
the IMAGE and EXACT REPRESENTATION of God.
Why?
NHBecause all of creation does!
Look….
Rev 5:
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
[11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
[12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
[14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.<!–QuoteBegin–Cult Buster+June 21 2007,23:58–>
Quote (Cult Buster @ June 21 2007,23:58) Quote (t8 @ June 21 2007,20:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,05:52) So God dosnt have substance?
God has a nature if that is what you mean.He shares his nature too, as we will be able to partake of that nature.
Similarly, when I have a son, he shares in my nature. That is he is like me.
Jesus is God's son, so as you would expect, he is a divine being.
So t8. You just said that Jesus is a Divine Being.
I have always said that.If you prejudge people then often you don't listen to what they say.
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,<!–QuoteBegin–WorshippingJesus+June 22 2007,10:06–>
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2007,10:06) t8
You say…Quote
They are 2 because God has a son. That is 2. The only true God sent his son, that is 2. Even a child can understand that.
2 what? “A God” and “a smaller god”? or “a God” and “another divine being”?
The answer is:God and God's son.
If that is not good enough for you, then neither is scripture good enough for you.
God and his son.
You don't need to get the test tube out and try and boil that one down. Just believe it in faith and receive that truth like a child. If you could do that in life you would be great in God's kingdom. But when you doubt, you are like a ship without a sail.
Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.Even the Jews understood that the Christ, the Son of the Blessed was God, that is why they accused Jesus of blasphemy.
Jesus claimed to be the Son of the Blessed, whom the Jews understood to be God. The high priest accused Jesus of blasphemy, because He claimed to be the Christ, the Son of the Blessed. When a man claims to be God it is blasphemy (John 10:33).
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus could have said to the high priest, “I wasn't blaspheming, you misunderstood me, I am not claiming to be God.” But He didn't correct the high priest because Jesus was in fact asserting His deity.
Jesus was accused many times of blasphemy, of making Himself God, but never once did He try to change their perception of Him claiming deity.
So tell us t8. Is Jesus a true God or a false God?
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Hi CB,
Why should he attempt to clarify matters for those who had set their minds on murdering him and were only looking for some legal justification to do so?
Do not make him an idol but worship his Father with him
as he said true worshipers will do.Quote (t8 @ June 22 2007,10:49) <!–QuoteBegin–WorshippingJesus+June 22 2007,10:06–> Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2007,10:06) t8
You say…Quote
They are 2 because God has a son. That is 2. The only true God sent his son, that is 2. Even a child can understand that.
2 what? “A God” and “a smaller god”? or “a God” and “another divine being”?
The answer is:God and God's son.
If that is not good enough for you, then neither is scripture good enough for you.
God and his son.
You don't need to get the test tube out and try and boil that one down. Just believe it in faith and receive that truth like a child. If you could do that in life you would be great in God's kingdom. But when you doubt, you are like a ship without a sail.
t8That is no answer for this…
Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You deny the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,How do you explain this t8?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,09:31) Hi W,
How do you resolve it without adding to scripture?
NHAdd to scripture?
You say “Jesus was a Son of God” before his birth as a man.
Scripture please!
You say “God created all things through this Son of God”, a lessor being.
Whos is adding to scripture?
Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You deny the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,How do you explain this NH?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,05:36) Hi W,
Can you resolve these matters without adding trinity theory to scripture?
NHNo you cant!
Hi W,
Sorry but it is not a valid option to add to scripture.
God's challenge is for you to use scripture only.
Then to admit ignorance when you fail.
Back to the drawing boards.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,07:07) Hi W,
Sorry but it is not a valid option to add to scripture.
God's challenge is for you to use scripture only.
Then to admit ignorance when you fail.
Back to the drawing boards.
NHExactly!
Look again at these scriptures…
Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You deny the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,How do you explain this NH?
Looks like you need to go back to the drawing boards!
Hi W,
Sorry there is no scripture that says God is a trinity.
None that says there are persons in God.Patchwork quilts of random verses are not valid to prove anything.
Instead
God is One and has a Son.1. Jehovah the Father.
2. Christ is Jehovah.
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.3. Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (NWT)
(Even the Arian's own bible cannot hide the truth)Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
