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Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,09:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,06:33) *Somebody please tell me how God who is infinite in Power, Wisdom, Strength, Love, who fills all things, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is bigger than the heavens, can have an image that is an exact representation of all he is, apart from himself?
Finally, I get to push the “easy” button!Answer: He beget a Son
Not3So you think Yeshua is infinite in Power, Wisdom, Strength, Love, and fills all things, and is from everlasting to everlasting, and is bigger than the heavens, and is an exact representation of all God is, and he is just a mere man?
HMMM?
I think you need to buy a new “easy button”!
Hi CB,
'Make sure the light in you is not darkness for O how deep that darkness can be'
Surely you are not still groping around in the dark?
Seek the light.Quote (Cult Buster @ May 31 2007,18:53) Some of you folk need to think seriously before you continue to blaspheme the name of Christ Jehovah.
Oh, my goodness! My eyes were burning as I read this sentence.Jesus would be so disappointed to know that he spent so much in vain – pointing us to his Father who is God – only to see that the children have turned HIM into God.
Where, O where in scripture might I find “Christ Jehovah”? It is so offensive to me that I almost didn't want to type it. Now I understand how Tim2 felt when he didn't want to type “sex” and “God” in the same sentence.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,19:03) So you think Yeshua is infinite in Power, Wisdom, Strength, Love, and fills all things, and is from everlasting to everlasting, and is bigger than the heavens, and is an exact representation of all God is, and he is just a mere man?
Oh, I never said he was a mere man. I think you got too smiley-face happy to read what I wrote.I said he was God's Son.
Quote (Cult Buster @ June 01 2007,13:53) It is evident that in Heb 1:3 Christ is being described as a divine Being. He is of the same substance as God.
To CultB.In your quote you just admitted that Jesus isn't God himself.
You clearly are speaking about 2.
A being of the same substance as God is a being that is like God himself in the respect that he has the same substance.
Can you see this? You admitted in a round about way that there is a difference between what and who, or nature/substance and identity.
When you say that he is the same as… you are talking about one identity who is like another identity in nature or substance. So you just admitted that Jesus isn't God himself, or God in identity.
You said it yourself. He has the same substance as God himself.
I rest my case.
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2007,10:30) Quote (Cult Buster @ June 01 2007,13:53) It is evident that in Heb 1:3 Christ is being described as a divine Being. He is of the same substance as God.
To CultB.In your quote you just admitted that Jesus isn't God himself.
You clearly are speaking about 2.
A being of the same substance as God is a being that is like God himself in the respect that he has the same substance.
Can you see this? You admitted in a round about way that there is a difference between what and who, or nature/substance and identity.
When you say that he is the same as… you are talking about one identity who is like another identity in nature or substance. So you just admitted that Jesus isn't God himself, or God in identity.
You said it yourself. He has the same substance as God himself.
I rest my case.
t8Does God have substance?
Does God have the same substance as Jesus?
He must because Jesus has his substance!
So by your logic God is Not God if he has the same substance as Jesus!
You shouldnt rest your case so quickly!
Your words just confirm that your God is a substance.
But the true God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If your God is a substance with 3 persons, then you pray to a substance when you call God “him”.
Can you see that?
I rest my case again.
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2007,12:36) Your words just confirm that your God is a substance. But the true God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If your God is a substance with 3 persons, then you pray to a substance when you call God “him”.
Can you see that?
I rest my case again.
t8
So God dosnt have substance?
You should know that God is One t8. Why do you call another being your Lord and master?
Dont you know this is forbidden! For the Lord God is a Jealous God and there is none other beside him or like him!
You cant have “Two masters”!
Luke 13:16
*No servant can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.Again, you rest your case to soon!
To WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,07:48) t8 So God dosnt have substance?
You should know that God is One t8. Why do you call another being your Lord and master?
Dont you know this is forbidden! For the Lord God is a Jealous God and there is none other beside him or like him!
You cant have “Two masters”!
Luke 13:16
*No servant can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
The other being you refer to is God's son.Anyway, God is Spirit and he has divine nature.
Angels are spirits and we will partake of divine nature, so am I to conclude given your logic, that angels and men are God?
What really is your point? That God is a gooey substance of some kind because I really don't care about that. It is not written that God is a substance. Substance is a created thing and God is not created.
I rest my case again and leave you with the definition of substance for your own understanding in this matter.
sub·stance /ˈsʌbstəns/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-stuhns] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.that of which a thing consists; physical matter or material: form and substance.
2.a species of matter of definite chemical composition: a chalky substance.
3.controlled substance.
4.the subject matter of thought, discourse, study, etc.
5.the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.
6.substantial or solid character or quality: claims lacking in substance.
7.consistency; body: soup without much substance.
8.the meaning or gist, as of speech or writing.
9.something that has separate or independent existence.I should also add that if I serve Christ, then I am serving God because Christ is in God's will.
If you don't understand this, then you need to pray that God gives you understanding and wisdom.
When you have his understanding, you will know that Jesus is completely in God's will and God sent him to represent himself.
Jesus comes in his Father's name and we come in Jesus name.
Ultimately if we are in Jesus name, then we are of God. It is not meant to be taken that we or Jesus is the Most High God.
(t8)
Quote Quote (Cult Buster @ June 01 2007,13:53)
It is evident that in Heb 1:3 Christ is being described as a divine Being. He is of the same substance as God.To CultB.
In your quote you just admitted that Jesus isn't God himself.
You clearly are speaking about 2.
A being of the same substance as God is a being that is like God himself in the respect that he has the same substance.
Can you see this? You admitted in a round about way that there is a difference between what and who, or nature/substance and identity.
When you say that he is the same as… you are talking about one identity who is like another identity in nature or substance. So you just admitted that Jesus isn't God himself, or God in identity.
You said it yourself. He has the same substance as God himself.
I rest my case.
I feel as though you completely ignored my post:
Quote
May 31 2007,18:15Hi t8,
Quote
You can't have it both ways, he is either from God or God himself.I think you are conflating the nature/substance of God with the personality of God. You are starting from the assumption that God is one person. But that is the issue we're discussing. You can't offer an assumption as evidence when the assumption is disputed.
Now being from God and being God are not mutually exclusive. For we know that God is Light. And we agree that light radiates, and that this is the case with God. So by no means is it impossible for the Light radiating from God to not be God as well. And we are told time and again that this Light radiating from the Father is Jesus. God of God, Light of Light.
tim
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2007,13:24) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,07:48) t8 So God dosnt have substance?
You should know that God is One t8. Why do you call another being your Lord and master?
Dont you know this is forbidden! For the Lord God is a Jealous God and there is none other beside him or like him!
You cant have “Two masters”!
Luke 13:16
*No servant can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
The other being you refer to is God's son.Anyway, God is Spirit and he has divine nature.
Angels are spirits and we will partake of divine nature, so am I to conclude given your logic, that angels and men are God?
What really is your point? That God is a gooey substance of some kind because I really don't care about that. It is not written that God is a substance. Substance is a created thing and God is not created.
I rest my case again and leave you with the definition of substance for your own understanding in this matter.
sub·stance /ˈsʌbstəns/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-stuhns] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.that of which a thing consists; physical matter or material: form and substance.
2.a species of matter of definite chemical composition: a chalky substance.
3.controlled substance.
4.the subject matter of thought, discourse, study, etc.
5.the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.
6.substantial or solid character or quality: claims lacking in substance.
7.consistency; body: soup without much substance.
8.the meaning or gist, as of speech or writing.
9.something that has separate or independent existence.
Regarding your claim that the angels are like God, I already directed you to my post in Dualism:Quote So the issue is whether or not God shares a common attribute with creation, which you call “godlike, having divine nature, spirit.” Agreed? The relevant Scriptures are:
John 1:1 -“and Theos was the Word.” Some scholars believe that Theos, though a noun, is used here in a qualitative sense, as in, “The Word had the nature of God.”
Acts 17:29 -“We ought not to think that the Theion is like gold, silver, or stone.”
Romans 1:20 -“His eternal power and Theiotes have been understood …”
Colossians 2:9 -“In Him dwells all the fullness of the Theotetos bodily.”
2 Peter 1:3 -“His Theias power has granted to us …”
2 Peter 1:4 -“That through these you may become koinonoi Theias fuseos …”I believe these are all of the qualitative uses of Theos, Theios, and Theotes in the New Testament. Note that the angels are not described by these words in the New Testament, so your only connection to them is that they are spirits, which I'll discuss below.
Trenchard's Dictionary of New Testament Greek gives these definitions:
Theos (noun) -“deity, god, goddess; God (of Christ); God (in Israelite and Christian contexts); god (of humans and of the belly); god (of the devil). Theos is used 1317 times in the New Testament.
Theotetos (noun) -divine character or nature, deity, divinity. Used once, in Colossians 2:9.
Theios (adjective) -divine; divine being, divinity. Used three times, which are above: Acts 17:29, 2 Peter 1:3-4.
Theiotes (noun) -divinity, divine nature, divineness. Used once in Romans 1:20.My first observation is that Theotetos and Theiotes, are used exclusively of God in the New Testament. According to http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1213#1 Theos is used exclusively of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, except for (1) the Israelite judges in John 10:34, (2) the pagan gods in Acts 14:11; Acts 19:26; Acts 28:6; 1 Cor 8:5; Gal 4:8, (3) the devil in 2 Corinthians 4:4, and (4) the belly in Philippians 3:19. Clearly cases 2, 3, and 4 refer not to these things actually being gods, but to them being the rulers or leaders of these people (who follow paganism, the devil, and their belly).
So, the angels are never called by these words in the New Testament, and one of the words, Theias, is used with reference to men once, in 2 Peter 1:4, where it said they will koinonoi Theias phuseos. Calvin, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom45.vii.ii.i.html notes that the “nature” here is not “essence”, ousia, but “quality,” phuseos. He explains, ” they only intended to say that when divested of all the vices of the flesh, we shall be partakers of divine and blessed immortality and glory, so as to be as it were one with God as far as our capacities will allow.” His editor explains, “Escaping the corruption of the world is “godliness,” is “virtue;” and partaking of the divine nature is “life,” is “glory.”
I think we already agreed that 2 Peter 1:4 (and 1 John 3:2) refers to believers receiving a spiritual body like Jesus received at the resurrection. But this has nothing to do with Him in the beginning being Theos. Likewise, I don't think you believe that the spiritual body Jesus received at the resurrection is the same as the Spirit that the Father is. The most you can show from 2 Peter 1:4 is that believers will receive bodies that are incorruptible, which again is falling into the “not” fallacy I showed in my second post. “God and X are not A. Therefore, God and X have something in common.” My point was that you can draw an infinite number of such comparisons between any two things; but you can make zero positive comparisons between God and anything. You can't say, “God and X are both B.”
But this is what you attempt to do by saying “God is a spirit” in John 4:24, and “Who makes His angels spirits” in Hebrews 1:7. But I thought you already agreed that the angels are not the same type of spirit that God is? I thought we already agreed that they are “not made of the same stuff.” I think the whole point of Hebrews 1 is to show that Jesus is something other than the angels, so surely you believe the Father is different as well? And to say God exists in the heavens, as the angels do, doesn't give glory to God, for heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain God (1 Kings 8:27), but they can certainly contain the angels.
Tim
Regarding substance, I believe definition number 9 comes closest to that of the creeds. Your seeming agreement with CB that the Father and the Son are of the same substance would suggest you agree that they are one Thing, God, Who of course has an independent existence. And given Jesus' affirmation that the Father and He are one, why do you keep trying to make them 2?
Tim
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2007,13:24) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,07:48) t8 So God dosnt have substance?
You should know that God is One t8. Why do you call another being your Lord and master?
Dont you know this is forbidden! For the Lord God is a Jealous God and there is none other beside him or like him!
You cant have “Two masters”!
Luke 13:16
*No servant can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
The other being you refer to is God's son.Anyway, God is Spirit and he has divine nature.
Angels are spirits and we will partake of divine nature, so am I to conclude given your logic, that angels and men are God?
What really is your point? That God is a gooey substance of some kind because I really don't care about that. It is not written that God is a substance. Substance is a created thing and God is not created.
I rest my case again and leave you with the definition of substance for your own understanding in this matter.
sub·stance /ˈsʌbstəns/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-stuhns] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.that of which a thing consists; physical matter or material: form and substance.
2.a species of matter of definite chemical composition: a chalky substance.
3.controlled substance.
4.the subject matter of thought, discourse, study, etc.
5.the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.
6.substantial or solid character or quality: claims lacking in substance.
7.consistency; body: soup without much substance.
8.the meaning or gist, as of speech or writing.
9.something that has separate or independent existence.
t8You say…
Quote
What really is your point? That God is a gooey substance of some kind because I really don't care about that. It is not written that God is a substance. Substance is a created thing and God is not created.Of course you dont care about his substance!
You say substance is a created thing. Then God must be nothing for he is not created.
Of course since Jesus is “the exact representation of his substance” he must be a created thing!
You should follow Thomas example t8 and and cry out “My Lord and My God”.
Then you can truly say you rest your case!
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2007,13:33) I should also add that if I serve Christ, then I am serving God because Christ is in God's will. If you don't understand this, then you need to pray that God gives you understanding and wisdom.
When you have his understanding, you will know that Jesus is completely in God's will and God sent him to represent himself.
Jesus comes in his Father's name and we come in Jesus name.
Ultimately if we are in Jesus name, then we are of God. It is not meant to be taken that we or Jesus is the Most High God.
t8I repeat!
So God dosnt have substance?
You should know that God is One t8. Why do you call another being your Lord and master?
Dont you know this is forbidden! For the Lord God is a Jealous God and there is none other beside him or like him!
You cant have “Two masters”!
Luke 13:16
*No servant can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.t8, do you believe Yeshua was present with the Father when he said…
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,How can this be t8, seeing Jesus is the “exact representation of his substance” and the “Express Image of the invisible God”?
t8 if Jesus is a seperate being from the Father, then you have 2 Lords and 2 masters! Can you see that?
You see how scriptures just corrected you!
The Lord our God is “One” Lord!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,05:52) Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,How can this be t8, seeing Jesus is the “exact representation of his substance” and the “Express Image of the invisible God”?
When my husband and I first met, I owned a little antique shop. I can tell you from experience with antiques that an exact replica of an old antique isn't worth anything compared to the actual antique item itself.God is telling us that there is none like him; meaning, that there are no other persons or things that are God. Only he is God.
Jesus is a representative. And of course he is God' Son, so he is bound to be an image of his Father as well. This makes sense to me. These scriptures do not have to turn Jesus into God, for me. They make sense just as they are written.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,16:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,05:52) Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,How can this be t8, seeing Jesus is the “exact representation of his substance” and the “Express Image of the invisible God”?
When my husband and I first met, I owned a little antique shop. I can tell you from experience with antiques that an exact replica of an old antique isn't worth anything compared to the actual antique item itself.God is telling us that there is none like him; meaning, that there are no other persons or things that are God. Only he is God.
Jesus is a representative. And of course he is God' Son, so he is bound to be an image of his Father as well. This makes sense to me. These scriptures do not have to turn Jesus into God, for me. They make sense just as they are written.
not3You are missing the point.
t8 believes Jesus was with the Father from eternity and that that God created all things through him, yet scriptures clearly show “there is none other beside him” and God says “he created all things by himself”!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,05:52) So God dosnt have substance?
God has a nature if that is what you mean.He shares his nature too, as we will be able to partake of that nature.
Similarly, when I have a son, he shares in my nature. That is he is like me.
Jesus is God's son, so as you would expect, he is a divine being.
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