- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,09:30) Yes the Father is not the Son!
OK, exactly what is the incarnation again?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,09:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,08:20) Hi W,
The sunlight is not the sun.
The sun is more than that which it expresses.
NhYes the Father is not the Son!
But they are one God!
One Spirit, Three Presons. One God!
Hi w,
They have eternal unity from the Jordan but you cannot have significant unity unless you have had separation. God has a son-two beings with life in themself and all the separate will and choices that individuals possess.As you say Jesus is the Word, the Son of God, the Christ who came in the flesh.
So you just need to understand Jn 1.1 in this light and not stumble over the stone of the Son.
Lay the first and only foundation stone-the Son of God.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,09:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,09:30) Yes the Father is not the Son!
OK, exactly what is the incarnation again?
Hi,
W and Athanasius say it is the Word\Christ who came in the flesh but the others of the trinity theory here prefer to say God came. W says the Word IS God anyway.The Son of God has come.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Quote (Tim2 @ May 31 2007,23:41) t8, You say that men reflect the image and glory of God, and you are right. But Jesus is not said to be the “reflection” of God's glory, He is said to be the Radiance. The reflection is something altogether separate and different from the Light, but the Radiance is the Light itself, as Jesus is the true Light. John 1:9.
I don't believe it says that all redeemed men reflect all the attributes of God together.
But when we see Jesus we see the Father. It doesn't say we see a reflection of the Father, or part of the Father, or anything less. It says we see the Father.
Tim
Hi Tim2.- We are made in the image of God.
- Jesus is the image of God.
The only difference I can see here is that we were made and Jesus wasn't.
But we are both images, but needless to say, that Christ is the full expression of God, and we express God's attributes in part only.
For those who read WJs quoted post below:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,01:33) True! You cannot seperate the “Image”, from its source!
You take away the mans Image then the man has no Image and therefore does not exist.
If you take away the image of God, then God has no Image.
The image of the man is the woman.Adam existed without a woman for a while. But realised he was missing something. But he still existed nevertheless.
Man is the image and glory of God.
Yet we are not God.
Saying that the source cannot exist without the/an image, or cannot be separated, is not true. Men who are the image of God can be separated from God and even Christ who is the image was separated when he cried out, “My God my God, why has thou forsaken me”.
1 Corinthians 11:7
A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.WJ used his own logic and scripture corrected him.
Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,06:20) Athanasius said that the Word is God.
But John didn't say that, did he?To Kyle.
Quote (Kyle @ May 08 2007,15:03) “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Christ speaks of himself in the third person here – at least in most of today's english translations. You obviously can't use logic in this case to prove that the one speaking isn't Jesus Christ.
I could be wrong of course, but it seems that it is John who is speaking as he is the one who wrote this.Is there proof that this is Christ speaking? Is it a quote in the OT for example?
Quote (t8 @ May 31 2007,12:06) For those who read WJs quoted post below: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,01:33) True! You cannot seperate the “Image”, from its source!
You take away the mans Image then the man has no Image and therefore does not exist.
If you take away the image of God, then God has no Image.
The image of the man is the woman.Adam existed without a woman for a while. But realised he was missing something. But he still existed nevertheless.
Man is the image and glory of God.
Yet we are not God.
Saying that the source cannot exist without the/an image, or cannot be separated, is not true. Men who are the image of God can be separated from God and even Christ who is the image was separated when he cried out, “My God my God, why has thou forsaken me”.
1 Corinthians 11:7
A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.WJ used his own logic and scripture corrected him.
t8Not so!
There is a difference in likeness and image!
We were created “IN” the image of God!
Jesus “Is” the image of God!
“An Image” and “the image” is two different things!
If you see Jesus you see God! He is the exact representation of his substance.
Not so with any other being including man who has his likeness!
If you see man in Christ or Christ in man you see the likeness of God, you are not the image you are Christ like, hence “Christians”!
So again if you take away your image or Gods not the likeness then the source ceases because it has no image!
Jesus does not reflect God as a mirror, Jesus reflects God as in face to face!
To WJ.
The image of man is the woman. If you took away Eve, would Adam have ceased to exist?
The answer of course contradicts your statement that you cannot separate the source and image.
Again, Jesus the image of God took the sins of the world upon himself. When God forsook him, was Jesus still the image of God?
Can you see how scripture corrected you?
To WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,07:34) Jesus does not reflect God as a mirror, Jesus reflects God as in face to face!
Oh OK.So Jesus face reflects God's face.
I agree that Jesus face reflects God.
Well then, you just admitted that Jesus wasn't God.
Where does it say that Jesus reflects God? It says that Jesus is the Radiance of God's glory. The radiance comes directly from the source. A reflection bounces off of another object.
Hi Tim 2,
Of course God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor5], in fact to the fulness of deity[col], so he indeed expressed and radiated all of the nature of God to mankind. But he never took the credit or responsibility for any of these amazing powers ascribing them to God. We should too lest we call him a liar.Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,10:34) To be clear, 1 Corinthians 11:7 says womans is the glory of man, not the image of man.
Thanks. This is true. It doesn't say that.Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,10:37) Where does it say that Jesus reflects God? It says that Jesus is the Radiance of God's glory. The radiance comes directly from the source. A reflection bounces off of another object.
Radiance means of.E.g., radiance of the sun comes from the sun.
The son of God also came from God.
Here are some uses of radiance. I haven't got time right now to see if they are all the same word in the Greek.
2 Corinthians 3:13
We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.Notice the words “radiance of the glory of God”.
Again, he is OF God. He is the glory of God. NOTE: the woman is the glory of man. Woman is not the man himself but she is part of mankind.
John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.Do you believe this?
You can't have it both ways, he is either from God or God himself.You can't have both pagan philosophy and the truth.
People should teach one or the other. But mixing them together is deceptive. (I say this as a general statement and is not meant to be pointed at anyone in particular.)
Hi t8,
Quote You can't have it both ways, he is either from God or God himself. I think you are conflating the nature/substance of God with the personality of God. You are starting from the assumption that God is one person. But that is the issue we're discussing. You can't offer an assumption as evidence when the assumption is disputed.
Now being from God and being God are not mutually exclusive. For we know that God is Light. And we agree that light radiates, and that this is the case with God. So by no means is it impossible for the Light radiating from God to not be God as well. And we are told time and again that this Light radiating from the Father is Jesus. God of God, Light of Light.
tim
Quote (t8 @ May 31 2007,12:55) To WJ. The image of man is the woman. If you took away Eve, would Adam have ceased to exist?
The answer of course contradicts your statement that you cannot separate the source and image.
Again, Jesus the image of God took the sins of the world upon himself. When God forsook him, was Jesus still the image of God?
Can you see how scripture corrected you?
t8Not at all t8.
We are not talking about the image of a man and a woman.
But if we were, is Eve the exact representation of Adam?
Not at all!
If someone looks at you face to face are they seeing your wife? or visa versa.
No they are seeing “your image”. The point is you cant seperate your image from yourself!
You are trying to make Yeshua into a mirror reflection of God.
Where as he is the “Express Image of the Invisible God”, “The exact representation of his substance”.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Col 1
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (substance), and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,You should believe all the scriptures t8!
Quote (Tim2 @ May 31 2007,15:37) Where does it say that Jesus reflects God? It says that Jesus is the Radiance of God's glory. The radiance comes directly from the source. A reflection bounces off of another object.
True tim!Bad choice of words on my part.
I was meaning when you look at Jesus “Face to Face” you see God!
It is evident that in Heb 1:3 Christ is being described as a divine Being. He is of the same substance as God. The express image of God's essence.
How many of you arians will claim to be of the same substance as God? Have you looked in the mirror lately
Heb 1:3
(ASV) who being the effulgence of his glory, and the the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(LITV) who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, Psa. 110:1
(MKJV) who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,
(YLT) who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might–through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,
Some of you folk need to think seriously before you continue to blaspheme the name of Christ Jehovah.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
