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Quote (Cult Buster @ July 23 2007,12:13) Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
And now let's look at the context.Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,So there we have it. God > Christ > Angel > John > 7 churches > Us/readers.
Is Jesus God? No.
God gave the revelation to him.t8,July wrote:[/quote]
Revelation 1:1 speaks of the revelation of Jesus Christ. It does not speak of the grace of Jesus Christ.Nice try t8 but it's back to the drawing board again for you with Nick and kejonn
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Hi CB,
Rather than following catholicism why not follow Jesus?
He spoke the words of truth but you speak the words of strangers.Yes Nick.
We should listen to the shepherd, but CultB is trying to get us to listen to him and if we were silly enough to do that, then he would lead us straight back to Babylon and we would end up following a God substance that contains 3 persons.
He is trying to lead God's people into captivity.
To all. Beware of CultB's leaven.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 23 2007,13:16) Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Oh right, of course, there is the Trinity right there.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,19:13) kejonn. Are you ignorant of the following or do I have to point it out to you? Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
1) You left off the Holy Spirit again. Where is the “grace of the Holy Spirit”?
2) You just finally gave me the understanding of Titus 2:13, something I've been struggling with! Let's check it out.Tts 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
Tts 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,Is grace itself visible? So how can it appear? But Yeshua was visible and he did appear. He is the grace of God, God our savior, who brings salvation! Now Titus 2:13 falls nicely in place. I can't believe I missed it all along.
Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus
Titus 2:11 – who is the grace of God who brings salvation to all men? Titus 2:13 tells us: Christ Jesus! Christ Jesus is the object of “the glory of our great God and Savior”. 2:10-11 set the whole context in place.
Thanks CB for the reminder. You've helped to clear up another verse Trinitarians cling to.
Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,18:22) [/quote] Cult wrote:kejonn. Are you ignorant of the following or do I have to point it out to you?
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Quote kejonn
Quote 1) You left off the Holy Spirit again. Where is the “grace of the Holy Spirit”? Zec 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers.
Kejonn. You're funny
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,21:33) Quote (kejonn @ July 23 2007,18:22) Quote (Cult Buster @ July 22 2007,19:13) kejonn. Are you ignorant of the following or do I have to point it out to you? Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Quote kejonn
Quote 1) You left off the Holy Spirit again. Where is the “grace of the Holy Spirit”? Zec 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers.
Kejonn. You're funny
Sorry, no cigar. Spirit of grace grace of Spirit. Find another verse. We need one that appears just like your others “Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ”, “grace of God” and finally, “grace of Spirit” or “grace of Holy Spirit”. Either will do.Hey CultB.
Jesus is not the son of God in appearance only. He is also not the God overall either.
He is the true Son of God.
This truth is what Jesus built his Church on.
Does your teaching come from God? How can it. It attacks the very foundation of the Church.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah and the son of God.
This I declare and this you cannot overcome.
Matthew 16:15-18
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Also:
Quote Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Do you have grace CultB?T8;
I'm not sure who you are but you are totally right on. The big issue with trinitarians is that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, then is the Father God, too. Certainly they would answer “YES” Here, of course, is the problem. Where did Jesus say I am God. They tried to say he was claiming himself to be equal to God when he said he was the Son of God and therefore should be killed. Now the Jews had a real problem because they were anticipating the Son of God and according to their doctrine any one that would declare themselves to be the Son of God should be killed because they said that meant equality with God. Trinitarians remind me of the Pharisees because they try to twist what Christ said in saying that Christ claimed equality with God. Trinitarians argue for the point that suits their doctrine making the commandment of God of none effect. The irony is that the trinitarians twist the scripture to make Christ equal with God for the same purpose as the scribes to please themselves and to maintain control of God's people.
To say that Christ is God is actually an ambiguous statement because it is subject to more than one interpretation. One believer means he was exalted by the Father as Lord of Heaven and Earth and another believer believes that he is equal with God the Father, or is God the Father, both of the later contradicting all the scriptures.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2007,01:58) Hey CultB. Jesus is not the son of God in appearance only. He is also not the God overall either.
He is the true Son of God.
This truth is what Jesus built his Church on.
Does your teaching come from God? How can it. It attacks the very foundation of the Church.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah and the son of God.
This I declare and this you cannot overcome.
Matthew 16:15-18
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Also:
Quote Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Do you have grace CultB?
t8.
So that you know who the Son is. (He is not your “another jesus”)Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Compare
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD (Jehovah) God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
With
LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.Compare
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
With
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.
HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}
REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}
MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}
GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God. . .
+ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.*ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord (Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
*LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
+LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins*ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Psa 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his r
ighteousness; For God is judge himself. Selah
Psa 7:8 The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Stephen kneeling and praying to Jesus)Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
You of course are referring to doubting Thomas. The term Lord and God are not as specific as Son and Father. Thomas never said Jesus was the Father. You may refer to Christ as God, but Christ said himself that the Father was his God, and therefore, Christ himself was the Son of God. The Father spoke to Christ at his baptism and declared this is my Son. Therefore, the most proper title for Christ is Son of God.
Mr Steve.
Why don't you give a straight answer without all the “twisting and wriggling”.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 02 2007,06:12) Mr Steve. Why don't you give a straight answer without all the “twisting and wriggling”.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
And yet Yeshua saidJhn 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “
If Yeshua says the Father is my God, well I just think I'll listen to him over ol' doubting Thomas any day.
“CB, Thomasian and Modalist”
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 02 2007,23:27) Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 02 2007,06:12) Mr Steve. Why don't you give a straight answer without all the “twisting and wriggling”.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
And yet Yeshua saidJhn 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “
If Yeshua says the Father is my God, well I just think I'll listen to him over ol' doubting Thomas any day.
“CB, Thomasian and Modalist”
Johns makes everyone count to three, comforter, God And christ.Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.Lam 1:16 For these [things] I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.
CB and Worshipping Jesus;
God is a general title. The Father is a specific title of God in the New Testament. When Thomas called Christ his God he wasn't speaking a lie. But don't read more into this scripture than is written. Did Thomas say you are my God and my Father? Did Thomas say you are equal to the Father? Is the Father even mentioned in the scripture? So if you're looking for scriptural support that Christ is God just like the Father is God, it's not found in Thomas' statement, My Lord and my God. By the way CB, nice cut and paste job on the scriptures. Can you explain them? Or, guess how many of them are on point with the call of the question and the issues presented, if any? Have you ever heard of an argument or an analysis or an application to the facts and issues presented? Never mind.
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