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t8. I have answer your question three times before and yet you still play word games. Look at the following statement.
The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus and for Him that and creation happened through the breath of His own mouth and by His own unborrowed power.
t8. Open your eyes and read the above sentence. I've stated my position clearly. I know that you don't like scriptural context instead to focus on a single word out of context and try to make it fit your false theology.
Quote Is 1:18
Quote Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation. Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
It is clear from the above verses of Is 1:18 that Christ is the Creator God of Psalm 102:25.
Refering to Jesus;
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himCreated by Who and for Who?
t8. Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.The Bible also tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Quote Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Get you catch that t8? Look again!
'all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.'Only God was before all things created.
Christ the Word of God was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.
– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Quote Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator Jehovah God .
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His own unborrowed power.
Quote Let us take a closer look at John chapter one. John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”
Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” Let me break it down into three statements.
“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”
So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
It is clear that Jesus is Jehovah God
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Quote (Cult Buster @ May 23 2007,16:39) t8. I have answer your question three times before and yet you still play word games. Look at the following statement. The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus and for Him that and creation happened through the breath of His own mouth and by His own unborrowed power.
t8. Open your eyes and read the above sentence. I've stated my position clearly. I know that you don't like scriptural context instead to focus on a single word out of context and try to make it fit your false theology.
Quote Is 1:18
Quote Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation. Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
It is clear from the above verses of Is 1:18 that Christ is the Creator God of Psalm 102:25.
Refering to Jesus;
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himCreated by Who and for Who?
t8. Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.The Bible also tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Quote Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Get you catch that t8? Look again!
'all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.'Only God was before all things created.
Christ the Word of God was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.
– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Quote Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator Jehovah God .
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His own unborrowed power.
Quote Let us take a closer look at John chapter one. John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”
Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” Let me break it down into three statements.
“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”
So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
It is clear that Jesus is Jehovah God
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
CultB.How do you sum up your sales pitch?
Did God make everything through Christ or not?
A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.
Matthew 5:37
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.James 5:12
Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your “Yes” be yes, and your “No,” no, or you will be condemned.I will put it this way CultB. If you cannot give me a yes or no to this simple and straightforward question, but instead a whole bunch of words like the serpent did with Eve, then given Matthew 5:37, I can only conclude one thing.
I will give you another chance. Can you give me a yes or a no, or will you let the sly serpent into your speech?
Yes or no. Any true believer should be able to answer yes or no to a simple question.
“I don't know” is also okay.
Thanks
Thanks Tim2.
I believe that too.
I think CultB does and yet doesn't. If he is double-minded on this, then that explains why he cannot give a yes or a no.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2007,17:04) Hi CB,
It is serious camel swallowing to preach three deities to those who worship one.
Yes that is one of the ways some Christians have alienated themselves from some Jews.Religious Jews know that YHWH is one God, not a triune one.
Promoting Jesus as the Lord and the son of YHWH after preaching a triune God, only makes it harder for them to accept Yeshua as the Messiah.
t8. I do not lend my words easily to be twisted by you or others. Here is your answer further simplified to suit your understanding.
Everthing was created by or through (en and dia) Christ Jehovah, and by His own unborrowed power.
If you cannot accept or understand it then that's your problem.
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: – about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.t8. I agree with the Bible's definition of through but not your arian assertion.
The Bible says that everything was created by (dia and en) Christ.
Some versions translate this as “through” which is still ok but its meaning is the same as “by”.
These words can be translated differently so you have to look at context which is what you folk avoid.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by (dia) him, and the world knew him not. KJV
Col 1:16 For by (en) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (en) him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by (dia) him all things consist. KJVHeb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: KJV
Joh 1:3 All things were made by (dia) him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
t8. Did you catch the above?
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by (dia) him all things consist. KJV
Christ was before all things, before all creation, and He was the Creator. Since only God was before all things that He created therefore Christ is God. Even a child can understand.
The use of the word by is more accurate in the above context.
You have another problem t8.
Jehovah alone created the universe by Himself.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear. There is no evidence in scripture that beings apart from God was involved in creation.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah. So you can try to put your own arian slant on the word “through” but the reality still is that all things were created by Jesus. The Bible's context of through which means “by or by means of” is accurate.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Dictionary
THROUGH – by, by means of, from beginning to end, Over the whole distance, to completion, throughout the entire extent,Hi CB
You say
“Everthing was created by or through (en and dia) Christ Jehovah, and by His own unborrowed power.”Where is Christ called by the name of his Father God?
His name means YAH saves.
Not YAHQuote (Cult Buster @ May 24 2007,19:30) t8. I do not lend my words easily to be twisted by you or others. Here is your answer further simplified to suit your understanding. Everthing was created by or through (en and dia) Christ Jehovah, and by His own unborrowed power.
OK, so you are saying both.i.e., that Christ created all things through Christ.
Is that right?
I await your answer.
Your posts are usually quite long and the answer isn't always obvious.
Sometimes a simple yes no, or one line answer is better than an essay.
Thanks.
Quote (Cult Buster @ May 24 2007,00:30) t8. I do not lend my words easily to be twisted by you or others. Here is your answer further simplified to suit your understanding. Everthing was created by or through (en and dia) Christ Jehovah, and by His own unborrowed power.
If you cannot accept or understand it then that's your problem.
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: – about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.t8. I agree with the Bible's definition of through but not your arian assertion.
The Bible says that everything was created by (dia and en) Christ.
Some versions translate this as “through” which is still ok but its meaning is the same as “by”.
These words can be translated differently so you have to look at context which is what you folk avoid.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by (dia) him, and the world knew him not. KJV
Col 1:16 For by (en) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (en) him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by (dia) him all things consist. KJVHeb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: KJV
Joh 1:3 All things were made by (dia) him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
t8. Did you catch the above?
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by (dia) him all things consist. KJV
Christ was before all things, before all creation, and He was the Creator. Since only God was before all things that He created therefore Christ is God. Even a child can understand.
The use of the word by is more accurate in the above context.
You have another problem t8.
Jehovah alone created the universe by Himself.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear. There is no evidence in scripture that beings apart from God was involved in creation.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah. So you can try to put your own arian slant on the word “through” but the reality still is that all things were created by Jesus. The Bible's context of through which means “by or by means of” is accurate.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
CBYour answer is clear, but is not what they want to hear.
You say…
Quote
Everthing was created by or through (en and dia) Christ Jehovah, and by His own unborrowed power.If you cannot accept or understand it then that's your problem.
G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: – about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.t8. I agree with the Bible's definition of through but not your arian assertion.
The Bible says that everything was created by (dia and en) Christ.
Some versions translate this as “through” which is still ok but its meaning is the same as “by”.
These words can be translated differently so you have to look at context which is what you folk avoid.
Your answer is clear but t8 refuses to hear both.
You see he believes Jesus is just a funnel that God made all things through.
They believe it was not by Yeshua's own substance all things were created, though by him “all things consist” and by the word of his, Yeshua's power “all things are upheld”.
t8
Did God create all things by and through himself?
Is all things by and through God?
I await a reply!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,14:58) Hi W and CB,
Athanasius would dispute your view.
NHAre you following Athanasius now?
Arius would also dispute our view!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2007,09:55) Your answer is clear but t8 refuses to hear both.
Yes it is clear now.He is saying that Christ created all things through Christ.
Correct me if I am wrong about what he is saying.
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2007,15:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2007,09:55) Your answer is clear but t8 refuses to hear both.
Yes it is clear now.He is saying that Christ created all things through Christ.
Correct me if I am wrong about what he is saying.
t8Then why didnt you quote him where he said this?
Quote He is saying that Christ created all things through Christ.
You say…Quote Correct me if I am wrong about what he is saying.
OK! You are wrong!Now maybe you could answer my questions?
Did God create all things by and through himself?
Is all things by and through God?
I await a reply!
God used His word to create.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
We are created in the image of God just as Jesus. Are we God, are we the Father?
We are Jesus' brethern.Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethern.
Jesus is the elder but he is still my brother not my God!
The “other Jesus” is God.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Did the apostles preach God is three? Did the apostles preach that Jesus IS God?
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) – Cite This Source
Nicene Creed
–noun1.a formal statement of the chief tenets of Christian belief, adopted by the first Nicene Council.
2.a later creed of closely similar form (Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed or Constantinopolitan Creed) referred, perhaps erroneously, to the Council of Constantinople (a.d. 381), received universally in the Eastern Church and, with an addition introduced in the 6th century a.d., accepted generally throughout western Christendom.
[Origin: 1560–70 FPRIVATE “TYPE=PICT;ALT=” ]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.IHN&L,
Ken
What did Thomas say to Jesus?
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Quote (Cult Buster @ May 27 2007,20:48) What did Thomas say to Jesus? Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
To CultB.What did Jesus say? “ye are theos”.
So how come you don't except that man is God?
Because the word “theos” is not always referring to God is it? Even you have to admit that.
Do you understand now?
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