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Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
Hi KathiOk, and that does include the same Heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, which Hebrews 1:10 attributes the creation of, to Jesus!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,11:39) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,11:11) Did you notice that the word ginomai has a definition which indicates a finished work? You see, before the light of day one, the heavens and the earth were NOT FINISHED.
So are you saying that in the Genesis account The Father started the work and the Son finished it?Can you show this in the Genesis creation.
On the seventh day “God” rested from all his work!
WJ
Keith,
Yes, I am indicating that the Father started the work and the Son finished it. It was after day one that the heavens and the earth were finished, not before.Kathi
Hi KathiYou have not validated scripturally you point.
For you are saying that the Fathers work when he made the heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1 was then created without Jesus.
You have no proof that Jesus finished the Fathers work for there is no distinction between “God” in Genesis 1:1,2 and the rest of the Genesis account.
Your own proof text disagrees with that thought…
Prov 8:22-30
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old“. 23 “From everlasting I was established”If this is Jesus then he is with the Father before he does his work in Genesis 1:1, 2.
So it cannot be that the Son was born and finished the work after then.
Also there is not even a hint of the “Light” doing the creating as you assume!
The light contrast the darkness and is called “day” and the evening and the morning was the first day!
WJ
Keith,
The verse in Proverbs is incomplete in your quote. It says:
Prov 8:23
23 “From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
NASU
Day one was happening during the earliest times of the earth.Then we have in Gen 1:26 this “hint” of more than one “making” something:
Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let Us make…”
NASULight is separated from darkness two times during the creation week. Doesn't that make you wonder. It had nothing to do with the clouds covering the sun and “keeping it dark” as some say because light and darkness was separated before the water was separated from the earth on day two.
The Son is the firstborn of all creation…there is a hint.
The Son is the Light of life…another hint.
There He was…a master craftsman in Prov. 8…another hint.
Psalms 104 quoted earlier is another hint.
1 Thess 5:5 speaks of us being sons of day and not sons of night…another coorelation.
Jesus is the light of the world…another hint.Also, about John 1, the word became flesh, it doesn't say that the word became a son.
Your comments about things coming into being is subjective IMO.
I think that it means the things as being fulfilled things. All things came into fulfillment or completion by Christ.Listen, I have to get many things done today so I just need to put this down for a while.
Catch ya later Keith,
KathiQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,14:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
Hi KathiOk, and that does include the same Heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, which Hebrews 1:10 attributes the creation of, to Jesus!
WJ
Keith,
Those heavens and earth that are to be destroyed were not complete until after day one.Have a great day!
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,14:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
Hi KathiOk, and that does include the same Heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, which Hebrews 1:10 attributes the creation of, to Jesus!
WJ
Keith,
Those heavens and earth that are to be destroyed were not complete until after day one.Have a great day!
Kathi
Hi KathiI do not think the writer of Hebrew was speaking of an incomplete heavens and earth!
Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 04 2009,12:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2009,02:48) Keith and Thinker,
Why does it say “You” did thus and so and then “He” did thus and so, if there weren't two cooperating in creation?Kathi,
Please see the online Hebrew Interlinear. The verses in our translations that say “He” would be better translated “The One who”:Quote Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 The One who lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 The One who sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 The One who made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.The Psalmist was simply saying You…The One who…
Example: I find that you are an intelligent lady. The one who can hold her own with men in debate.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa104.pdf
But if you're going to out think thethinker you will have to do your homework.
I need a nap. I have a headache sitting at the computer today. When I wake up I have to go to see the podiatrist. My heel spur is acting up. I will reply to your second post later.thinker
Hey JackHope your heal is better! I have prayed that the Lord will heal it!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,20:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,14:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
Hi KathiOk, and that does include the same Heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, which Hebrews 1:10 attributes the creation of, to Jesus!
WJ
Keith,
Those heavens and earth that are to be destroyed were not complete until after day one.Have a great day!
Kathi
Hi KathiI do not think the writer of Hebrew was speaking of an incomplete heavens and earth!
Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text?
WJ
Oh Keith,
I'm sure that the heavens and the earth spoken about in Hebrews 1:10 were the ones that were completed DURING the creation week.Heb 1:10-11
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASUI have no idea why you thought that I meant they are incomplete when they are destroyed. I must not have made something clear.
You say:
Quote Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text? That is funny that you say that because I could say that over and over about the trinitarian reasonings regarding the trinity doctrine. I think that the doctrine is based on inferences through and through.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,22:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,20:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,14:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
Hi KathiOk, and that does include the same Heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, which Hebrews 1:10 attributes the creation of, to Jesus!
WJ
Keith,
Those heavens and earth that are to be destroyed were not complete until after day one.Have a great day!
Kathi
Hi KathiI do not think the writer of Hebrew was speaking of an incomplete heavens and earth!
Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text?
WJ
Oh Keith,
I'm sure that the heavens and the earth spoken about in Hebrews 1:10 were the ones that were completed DURING the creation week.Heb 1:10-11
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASUI have no idea why you thought that I meant they are incomplete when they are destroyed. I must not have made something clear.
You say:
Quote Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text? That is funny that you say that because I could say that over and over about the trinitarian reasonings regarding the trinity doctrine. I think that the doctrine is based on inferences through and through.
Kathi
KathiAre you not even reading the scripture you quote?
It says the “Foundation of the earth” and the *heavens* are the work of your hands”
That includes all Kathi!
Besides, he is attributing the entire creation to Jesus, and there is no mention of the Father bringing birth to the light who then finishes the creation.
That is pure inference!
He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, “you laid the foundations of the earth, and the *heavens* are the work of your hands. Heb 1:10
A foundation is the beginning of a building! How much clearer can it get?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 05 2009,01:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,22:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,20:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,14:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
Hi KathiOk, and that does include the same Heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, which Hebrews 1:10 attributes the creation of, to Jesus!
WJ
Keith,
Those heavens and earth that are to be destroyed were not complete until after day one.Have a great day!
Kathi
Hi KathiI do not think the writer of Hebrew was speaking of an incomplete heavens and earth!
Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text?
WJ
Oh Keith,
I'm sure that the heavens and the earth spoken about in Hebrews 1:10 were the ones that were completed DURING the creation week.Heb 1:10-11
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASUI have no idea why you thought that I meant they are incomplete when they are destroyed. I must not have made something clear.
You say:
Quote Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text? That is funny that you say that because I could say that over and over about the trinitarian reasonings regarding the trinity doctrine. I think that the doctrine is based on inferences through and through.
Kathi
KathiAre you not even reading the scripture you quote?
It says the “Foundation of the earth” and the *heavens* are the work of your hands”
That includes all Kathi!
Besides, he is attributing the entire creation to Jesus, and there is no mention of the Father bringing birth to the light who then finishes the creation.
That is pure inference!
He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, “you laid the foundations of the earth, and the *heavens* are the work of your hands. Heb 1:10
A foundation is the beginning of a building! How much clearer can it get?
WJ
Keith,
You said this:Quote 28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; (Could be after the light of day)30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, You said that when the above happened it “could be after the light of day.” Read that marking out the foundations of the earth happened after day one. It was AFTER day one that the foundations were marked out. Read YOUR own words Keith.
Kathi
Keith,
I believe that the light of day one is tied to the Son of GOD being the firstborn of all creation because of GOD clueing me in to that 16 1/2 years ago. It is inference to you but it is an answer from God to me. I was searching for the meaning of the “Firstborn of all creation” for a good month when I heard the whisper in my ear “You are the Light of the world” after my son just told me that on day one of creation, God said “Let there be light.” I understand that you think it to be an inference…it is more to me and it changed my life. I wouldn't be discussing it so strongly if I thought it were just an inference and GOD didn't actually lead me to that.Kathi
WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote What? It clearly says there were “NO DEPTHS” period! No Depths means ‘Zero”, which clearly says that he was there before even Genesis 1:1, 2 which shows there was a face of the deep. You're right WJ. I checked it out and the Hebrew Interlinear and all the online translations concur that Wisdom existed before. I say “wisdom” existed before. I don't hold to Kathi's view that Proverbs 8 is speaking about Christ. Solomon's literature was poetic and he was employing personification. An example of wisdom being personified is in 9:1-3 where wisdom is personified as a housewife.
Kathi is basing her doctrine on poetic literature which is not valid.
thinker
Lightenup said:
Quote Thinker,
Please note that in the interlinear you linked to there are the words “messengers of him,” “chariot of him,” “rebuke of you” et al. There are two being spoken of here.Kathi,
Originally you said that there are two people involved in creation. You said,Quote Notice this passage about creation and see that there are two people involved, p. (25) Note the American Standard Version rendering,
Quote
1 Bless Jehovah, O my soul. O Jehovah my God, thou art very great; Thou art clothed with honor and majesty:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment; Who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain;
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters; Who maketh the clouds his chariot; Who walketh upon the wings of the wind;
4 Who maketh winds his messengers; Flames of fire his ministers;
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a vesture; The waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they fled; At the voice of thy thunder they hasted away
8 (The mountains rose, the valleys sank down) Unto the place which thou hadst founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; That they turn not again to cover the earth.
10 He sendeth forth springs into the valleys; They run among the mountains;( Note: “He” in this verse should be “who”, Albert Barnes)
Note that the word “he” in the translation you give is consistently translated as “who” in the ASV and the KJV. Even the NWT which is anti-trinitarian consistently translates it “who.”
So there are NOT two Gods involved in creation in this Psalm. Your reference to “messengers of him,” “chariot of him,” and “rebuke of you” does not support your view that there are two Gods in creation. The “him” in these references is not doing the acting at all.
Example: Who maketh winds messengers of him; flames of fire ministers of him;
The “who” that is acting is Jehovah of verse one. The one called “him” is receiving the benefit of the action of “who” (Jehovah). Therefore, Jehovah is acting in behalf of “him” (Messiah).
You have been very careless in saying that Psalm 104 teaches that there are two Gods involved in creation. You are forcing your two Gods theory into the Psalm.
thinker
Hi Keith and Thinker,
Keith writes:Quote
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth” When there were no springs abounding with water” (Yep, definitely before Genesis 1:2 because there was no water).
There was the “deep” before day one but the deep was one body of water, it was not “depths” plural. It was after day one that the water became separated and became “depths” plural.
What? It clearly says there were “NO DEPTHS” period! No Depths means ‘Zero”, which clearly says that he was there before even Genesis 1:1, 2 which shows there was a face of the deep.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. (again before Gen 1:2 but for sure before the light of day)
Gen 1:9-10
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV
The dry land was made and called earth after day one. It was made on day three.Come on Kathi, are you just shutting your eyes here?
It says “, …Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, “AND LET THE DRY LAND APPEAR”: and it was so.
10 And God called “THE DRY LAND EARTH”;The dry land was already there in Genesis 1:2 but the earth was without form for the waters covered the entire earth!
First of all regarding the “deep” in Gen 1, the deep here seems to me to be including all the water that eventually becomes our atmosphere and our seas. This all encompassing water is a much different picture, in my mind anyway, of what becomes the “depths” that Prov. 8 speaks about. I am going to give an illustration that might help picture how different the “deep” is from the “depths”:
Picture a bowl of firm jello with a formless glob suspended in the center. The jello is the water which is called the deep in Gen 1. The formless glob is the earth. That all encompassing water is much different than the seas that we understand now. What we understand now as bodies of water did not exist till after day one of creation when the waters were separated. So if I say that God said “Let there be light” before there were seas that would be true. The depths are deep places and we know them as seas and oceans. We have no experience with the deep that was referred to in Gen 1 but we do have experience with what is called the depths in Prov 8. So, therefore, there is a big difference between the deep of Gen 1 and the depths in Prov. 8. The Light was there before the depths but not before the deep. The difference is significant, IMO.Now regarding the subject of Prov 8 (which I see as the Son of God) existing before the earth and fields and fine dust were made, I think that the earth was “made” as in a sense of completion, i.e. formed, after day one. There could not have been fine dust if the formless earth was covered with water before day one.
Prov 8:22-31
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 “From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world.
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men.
NASUKathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2009,01:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 05 2009,01:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,22:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,20:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,14:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,14:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
Hi KathiOk, and that does include the same Heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1, 2, which Hebrews 1:10 attributes the creation of, to Jesus!
WJ
Keith,
Those heavens and earth that are to be destroyed were not complete until after day one.Have a great day!
Kathi
Hi KathiI do not think the writer of Hebrew was speaking of an incomplete heavens and earth!
Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text?
WJ
Oh Keith,
I'm sure that the heavens and the earth spoken about in Hebrews 1:10 were the ones that were completed DURING the creation week.Heb 1:10-11
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASUI have no idea why you thought that I meant they are incomplete when they are destroyed. I must not have made something clear.
You say:
Quote Why can't you guys just read the scriptures the way they are without all the inference and additions to the clear simple meaning of the text? That is funny that you say that because I could say that over and over about the trinitarian reasonings regarding the trinity doctrine. I think that the doctrine is based on inferences through and through.
Kathi
KathiAre you not even reading the scripture you quote?
It says the “Foundation of the earth” and the *heavens* are the work of your hands”
That includes all Kathi!
Besides, he is attributing the entire creation to Jesus, and there is no mention of the Father bringing birth to the light who then finishes the creation.
That is pure inference!
He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, “you laid the foundations of the earth, and the *heavens* are the work of your hands. Heb 1:10
A foundation is the beginning of a building! How much clearer can it get?
WJ
Keith,
You said this:Quote 28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; (Could be after the light of day)30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, You said that when the above happened it “could be after the light of day.” Read that marking out the foundations of the earth happened after day one. It was AFTER day one that the foundations were marked out. Read YOUR own words Keith.
Kathi
Hi KathiI said “could be” and I also said that if Proverbs 8 is Jesus then he was there at the “beginning of Gods ways and his works of old”…
Where do you even find the word “Foundation” in Genesis? It is your assumption that foundation is after day 1. It has to be that way for you because it will destroy the notion that Jesus wasn’t there before everything that was made.
Your own favorite scriptures contradict you like the “first born of all creation”, but of course Paul must not have known what you know.
He is the image of the invisible God, “the firstborn of all creation“. Col 1:15
Or how about this…
“He is before all things“, and in Him all things hold together. Col 1:17
Of cou
rse Paul forgot to mention that doesn't include Genesis 1:1,2.And so guess what scripture is sandwiched between these two that Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit penned?
“For by Him all things were created“, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–“all things have been created through Him and for Him. Col 1:16
But someone forgot to tell him that the “All things created” doesn’t mean “all things” because Genesis 1:1,2 is excluded.
This is ludicrous because of the verse before and after it.
Paul didn’t say “all these things”, did he? He said “all things”.
But you think that because he didn’t mention everything that existed then he could not have meant “all things”.
Paul also forgot to mention that when he said “all things are by Jesus” that he did not mean all things.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, “by whom are all things“, and we exist through Him. 1 Cor 8:6
So if the all things does not mean “all things” for Jesus here, then the “all things” for the Father does not mean all things!
This is a favorite passage for the anti-Trinitarians because it says there is one God yet they do not quote the rest that clearly shows in the same breath Paul has exalted Jesus right with the Father by calling him the “ONE Lord” and claiming that by him are all things and we exist through him.
And of course someone forgot to mention all of this to Jesus.
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the “Beginning (archē) of the creation of God”, says this: Rev 3:14
Beginning, Strong's G746 – archē
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
a) of angels and demonsHe is the origin, the first person, the leader.
In other words confirming Paul’s words “he is before all things” Col 1:17
Someone needs to tell Jesus he is only the “beginning of the creation of God” after Genesis 1:1, 2.We have to read all kinds of inference and apologetics and extra- Biblical terminology into these scriptures to hold your view Kathi.
The LORD possessed me “in the beginning of his way, before his works of old“. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Prov 8:22, 23
Unless you believe that Genesis 1:1, 2 is not part of the “Beginning of his ways or of his works of Old” then this scripture if this is Jesus is obviously saying that he was there “BEFORE” the beginning of his ways and his works of Old”, how clear is that!
Besides if Jesus is the wisdom you claim here then you would have to admit that “Wisdom” did not exist in Genesis 1: 1, 2.
I don't think so. Wisdom has been with God from eternity! The word “Owlam” can also mean from everlasting!
You doctrine is all over the place and not simply just sticking to the simple meaning of scripture in its text.
My God the writer of Hebrews is simply claiming Jesus as the one who laid the foundations of the heavens and the earth, the same ones that he will role up like a garment.
The writer of Hebrews could have easily given us a clue that Jesus was creator of part of the Heavens and the earth, and the same with the Apostle John in John 1:1-3 and Paul in Col 1:15-17.
Hebrew 1:3 says “by whom also he made the worlds;” (aiōn)
Worlds, aiōn;
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageNot only can this mean the worlds, and universe but also time itself meaning he would be the creator of everything starting from Gen 1:1,2 including the 1st day and every day after that!
My next post is addressing this issue (the light of day)in the post previously which I have not answered.
Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2009,01:30) Keith,
I believe that the light of day one is tied to the Son of GOD being the firstborn of all creation because of GOD clueing me in to that 16 1/2 years ago. It is inference to you but it is an answer from God to me. I was searching for the meaning of the “Firstborn of all creation” for a good month when I heard the whisper in my ear “You are the Light of the world” after my son just told me that on day one of creation, God said “Let there be light.” I understand that you think it to be an inference…it is more to me and it changed my life. I wouldn't be discussing it so strongly if I thought it were just an inference and GOD didn't actually lead me to that.Kathi
Hi KathiI too have witness that changed my life as well as millions of others and that is that “No man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit”.
Without church background and “NO” knowledge of the Trinity, I knew the day that Jesus came into my life he was my Lord and my God. And in 35 years I have not changed that Jesus for another.
Experiences have to be supported by the word of God.
I have scriptural support that calls Jesus God and was confessed so by many including Thomas, John, Luke, Paul, Peter, Mathew, Isaiah, and many church Fathers that were far closer to the time of Jesus than we.
You say God spoke to you, and you are passionate about it changing your life. Great. Only you know your heart and if it has changed your life or just your doctrine.
Only you know if your experience magnified Jesus in your heart or diminished him. No man should judge your experience but your doctrine like the rest of us may and will be challenged!
Blessings WJ
WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote Your own favorite scriptures contradict you like the “first born of all creation”, but of course Paul must not have known what you know. WJ,
Bingo! Kathi is trying to have it both ways.thinker
WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote So if the all things does not mean “all things” for Jesus here, then the “all things” for the Father does not mean all things! WJ,
Bingo again!thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2009,14:07) Hi Keith and Thinker,
Keith writes:Quote
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth” When there were no springs abounding with water” (Yep, definitely before Genesis 1:2 because there was no water).
There was the “deep” before day one but the deep was one body of water, it was not “depths” plural. It was after day one that the water became separated and became “depths” plural.
What? It clearly says there were “NO DEPTHS” period! No Depths means ‘Zero”, which clearly says that he was there before even Genesis 1:1, 2 which shows there was a face of the deep.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. (again before Gen 1:2 but for sure before the light of day)
Gen 1:9-10
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV
The dry land was made and called earth after day one. It was made on day three.Come on Kathi, are you just shutting your eyes here?
It says “, …Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, “AND LET THE DRY LAND APPEAR”: and it was so.
10 And God called “THE DRY LAND EARTH”;The dry land was already there in Genesis 1:2 but the earth was without form for the waters covered the entire earth!
First of all regarding the “deep” in Gen 1, the deep here seems to me to be including all the water that eventually becomes our atmosphere and our seas. This all encompassing water is a much different picture, in my mind anyway, of what becomes the “depths” that Prov. 8 speaks about. I am going to give an illustration that might help picture how different the “deep” is from the “depths”:
Picture a bowl of firm jello with a formless glob suspended in the center. The jello is the water which is called the deep in Gen 1. The formless glob is the earth. That all encompassing water is much different than the seas that we understand now. What we understand now as bodies of water did not exist till after day one of creation when the waters were separated. So if I say that God said “Let there be light” before there were seas that would be true. The depths are deep places and we know them as seas and oceans. We have no experience with the deep that was referred to in Gen 1 but we do have experience with what is called the depths in Prov 8. So, therefore, there is a big difference between the deep of Gen 1 and the depths in Prov. 8. The Light was there before the depths but not before the deep. The difference is significant, IMO.Now regarding the subject of Prov 8 (which I see as the Son of God) existing before the earth and fields and fine dust were made, I think that the earth was “made” as in a sense of completion, i.e. formed, after day one. There could not have been fine dust if the formless earth was covered with water before day one.
Prov 8:22-31
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 “From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world.
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men.
NASUKathi
Hi KathiMore oppologetics. Before the depths, No depths, Zero, wisdom was there and why would it not be?
God has always had wisdom in himself from eternity and brought it forth in the begining of all things including Time, space and matter!
Kathi, the Hebrew word for deep in Genesis 1:2 is “tĕhowm” and means…
1) deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea
a) deep (of subterranean waters)
b) deep, sea, abysses (of sea)
c) primeval ocean, deep
d) deep, depth (of river)
e) abyss, the grave
I hate to bear the bad news but it is the same word used in this verse…
“When there were no depths, (tĕhowm)” I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Proverbs 8:24
Wisdom was there before Genesis 1:1,2.
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2009,18:42) Hi WJ,
So the trinity did not come into your life?
NHActually if God came into your life so did the Trinity.
The Father does live in you doesnt he?
Jesus does live in you doesnt he?
You have recieved the Holy Spirit havn't you?
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote My God the writer of Hebrews is simply claiming Jesus as the one who laid the foundations of the heavens and the earth, the same ones that he will role up like a garment. WJ,
You are on a roll today bro! I just finished with dinner and was going to reply to some of Kathi's stuff. I saw your replies and breathed a sigh of relief because I don't need to do the work now. Btw, don't forget that Hebrews says that it is the Father who claims that Jesus laid the foundations of the earth. Someone forgot to tell the Father that this is not the case. I give Albert Barnes again on the word “foundations” in Hebrews 1:10,Quote The meaning here is, that the Son of God was the original creator or founder of the universe. He did not merely arrange it out of pre-existing Materials, but he brought it into existence by his own word and power (Barnes Notes on Hebrews, p. 43) thinker
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