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Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,20:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,10:16) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,11:52) WorshippingJesus said to Kathi: Quote The heavens and the earth and the waters were already in existence without light and the stars and moon on the first day! WJ,
Yes! It is clear. The Father credited the Son with the creation of the heavens. The heavens were in existence without “light” on the first day. Therefore, the introduction of “light” cannot be the introduction of the Son. Kathi once said that she would need “compelling evidence” before she would change her mind. That evidence has been presented. I am afraid that she was really guising the fact that she has no intentions of changing. By her highly active imagination she has proven over and over again that she is not teachable. She is very creative and always finds a way to explain away the facts. Though she is far more intelligent than most of the men on this board she is nevertheless dead wrong.thinker
Thinker,
See here that the “expanse” was made on day two and that expanse was called heaven. Day two comes after the day one light began, fyi.Gen 1:3-8
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
NASUThinker, the heavens may have had some type of existence before day one but it is undeniable that on day two they were still being “worked” on. The Son has been credited with the heavens being the “work” of His hands.
Kathi
Kathi,
See WJ's post above about the expanse (atmosphere, i.e., heaven). I will not repeat it. Your interpretation is problematic also because it infers that verses 3 & 6 have two separate persons speaking and acting. If what you are saying is true then verses 3 & 6 look like this:vs. 3: Then God [the Father] said, “let there be light.”
vs. 6: Then God [the Son] said, Let there be a firmament…called heaven.”
There is no hint at all that God in both verses is not the same Person. John 1:3 says that without the Word “not one thing came in to being that has come in to being.” “Not one thing” means NOT ONE thing!
thinker
Hi Thinker and Keith,
Notice in this passage about creation and see it written as if there are two people involved:
Psalm 104 Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 He sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 He made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.
NASUThere are two here also:
Prov 8:22-30
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 “From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. 24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. 25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. 27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; 30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
NASURegarding there being more than one heaven being made after day 1, we know that the sun, moon and stars were created on day 4 and they are in a different heaven that was worked on after day 1.
Also, regarding “all things came into being” I believe that is relative. In Col 1 we see that the all things are what is IN heaven and ON earth.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,20:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,10:16) thethinker,Aug. wrote:WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote The heavens and the earth and the waters were already in existence without light and the stars and moon on the first day!
WJ,
Yes! It is clear. The Father credited the Son with the creation of the heavens. The heavens were in existence without “light” on the first day. Therefore, the introduction of “light” cannot be the introduction of the Son. Kathi once said that she would need “compelling evidence” before she would change her mind. That evidence has been presented. I am afraid that she was really guising the fact that she has no intentions of changing. By her highly active imagination she has proven over and over again that she is not teachable. She is very creative and always finds a way to explain away the facts. Though she is far more intelligent than most of the men on this board she is nevertheless dead wrong.thinker
Thinker,
See here that the “expanse” was made on day two and that expanse was called heaven. Day two comes after the day one light began, fyi.Gen 1:3-8
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
NASUThinker, the heavens may have had some type of existence before day one but it is undeniable that on day two they were still being “worked” on. The Son has been credited with the heavens being the “work” of His hands.
Kathi
Kathi,
See WJ's post above about the expanse (atmosphere, i.e., heaven). I will not repeat it. Your interpretation is problematic also because it infers that verses 3 & 6 have two separate persons speaking and acting. If what you are saying is true then verses 3 & 6 look like this:vs. 3: Then God [the Father] said, “let there be light.”
vs. 6: Then God [the Son] said, Let there be a firmament…called heaven.”
There is no hint at all that God in both verses is not the same Person. John 1:3 says that without the Word “not one thing came in to being that has come in to being.” “Not one thing” means NOT ONE thing!
thinker
Hi KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21) Hi Thinker and Keith,
Notice in this passage about creation and see it written as if there are two people involved:
Psalm 104 Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 He sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 He made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.
NASU
Nope can't see two there, but we know that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are one God so no contradiction there.I took the liberty to commentate on your next set of passages from Proverbs if you do not mind.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21) There are two here also:
Prov 8:22-30
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 “From everlasting I was established” (seems to be from Eternity if it was Jesus), “From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth” (The earliest times of the earth would be Genesis 1:1, 2 before the light of day was created). 24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth” When there were no springs abounding with water” (Yep, definitely before Genesis 1:2 because there was no water). 25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. (again before Gen 1:2 but for sure before the light of day) 27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, (Heavens in the plural, has to be Genesis 1:1) When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep (Definitely Genesis 1:2 before the light of day, “the face of the deep”), 28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; (Could be after the light of day)30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
NASU
Ambiguous as to being Jesus, for this simply could be a metaphor or just simple personification of God's wisdom like the rest of proverbs. But if it were Jesus then it sure does not support your theory at all.It could be the Wisdom of Jesus that
is being personified as the one who created all things by his own spoken word, since by him all things consist and all wisdom and knowledge is in him and by the word of his Power he upholds all things, this being the Glory that he shared with the Father before his incarnation!In the beginning he was the Word that was with God and was God, and in the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth!
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21) Regarding there being more than one heaven being made after day 1, we know that the sun, moon and stars were created on day 4 and they are in a different heaven that was worked on after day 1.
Yea, the heavens of Genesis 1:1 which is speaking of the expanse of the Universe where the stars were hung.He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the “heavens are the work of your hands. Heb 1:10
Heavens, Strong's G3772 – ouranos:
1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
a) the universe, the world
b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
c) the sidereal or starry heavens
2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings
This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens!
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21) Also, regarding “all things came into being” I believe that is relative. In Col 1 we see that the all things are what is IN heaven and ON earth. Kathi
Kathi, John wanted to make sure that you got the point so the full quote is…“All things came into being through Him, AND **APART FROM HIM** NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING“. John 1:3
Blessings Keith
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2009,13:44) Hi WJ,
How many gods do you have if Jesus has a God?
That's it Nick? WJ presents all those scriptures for you and this is your reply? I should say “this is your no reply?” You should take this matter more seriously for the One you deny is your Judge.thinker
Lightenup said:
Quote Hi Thinker and Keith,
Notice in this passage about creation and see it written as if there are two people involved:
Psalm 104 Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 He sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 He made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.Kathi,
I don't see two persons in the passages you provided. This is just your over active imagination kicking in again. You didn't even indicate which was which in the Psalm. And Psalm 8 is poetic for the wisdom of God, or of Christ as Keith suggested might be the case.Please note this: The Father attributed to the Son the creation of the foundation of the earth (Heb. 1:10). This refers to the original creation.
Quote The meaning here is that the Son of God was the original creator or founder of the universe. He did not merely arrange it out of pre-existing materials, but he brought it into existence by his own word and power (Barnes' Notes on Hebrews, p. 43) Barnes says that Jesus “brought all things into existence.” The apostle John concurs saying, “Without Him not one thing came into existence that has come into existence.” So shall we talk about the word “foundation” while we're at it? You are in essence saying that the Son merely re-arranged the earth from pre-existing materials. You are denying that Jesus is the original creator. But the Father attributed to the Son the creation of the foundation of the earth. This puts Jesus n the beginning:
Genesis 1: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth”
Hebrews 1: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth….”It is so clear! Jesus laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning. But you imply He merely re-arranged things afterwards.
Your view that “all things” is “relative” in John 1:3 is unacceptable. Keith correctly pointed out that John clarified what he meant by the next phrase “without Him NOT ONE THING came into being that has come into being.” And you have no evidence that there are two different persons speaking and acting in verses 3 & 6 of Genesis 1.
Okay, do your homework
thinker
Keith and Thinker,
Why does it say “You” did thus and so and then “He” did thus and so, if there weren't two cooperating in creation?Psalm 104 Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 He sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 He made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.
NASUKathi
Keith and Thinker,
Keith wrote:
Quote
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21)
Also, regarding “all things came into being” I believe that is relative. In Col 1 we see that the all things are what is IN heaven and ON earth.Kathi
Kathi, John wanted to make sure that you got the point so the full quote is…
“All things came into being through Him, AND **APART FROM HIM** NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING”. John 1:3
The word for “being” is Strong's number #1096
giðnomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling
Ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
Parts of SpeechTDNT
Verb 1:681,117
Definitionto become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events
to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public
to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought
to become, be made
Translated Words
KJV (630) – God forbid + (3361), 15; arise, 13; be, 255; be done, 63; be fulfilled, 3; be made, 69; be married to, 3; be preferred, 3; become, 47; come, 52; come to pass, 82; done, 2; have, 5; misc, 4; not tr, 14;Did you notice that the word ginomai has a definition which indicates a finished work? You see, before the light of day one, the heavens and the earth were NOT FINISHED.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,10:48) Keith and Thinker,
Why does it say “You” did thus and so and then “He” did thus and so, if there weren't two cooperating in creation?Psalm 104 Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 He sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 He made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.
NASUKathi
Hi KathiIt is not clear if the Psalmist is speaking of another, it could be that he is giving YHWH praise at first for the heavens and then just begins to sing what the Lord did.
But look at the words “Flaming fire of his ministers”, the writer of Hebrews seems to be calling on this Psalm in his exegesis in Heb chapter 1:7-14, where he calls Jesus God and attributes the creation of the Heavens and the earth to him.
We are not denying that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit was involved in the creation of all things.
But they are One God “Eloyim”!
“This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who has made all things, *who alone* stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth *by myself*“, Isa 44:24
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters“. Gen 1:2
“The Spirit of God hath made me“, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4
“All things came into being through Him“, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:3
“For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen“. Rom 11:36
Kathi, I respect you above most here on this forum. I believe that you are a child of the King.
I don't know if I had shared this sight with you but thought I would give it to you again in hopes that it can share more light on who and what YHWH is. I don't expect that you will change but hope it helps to see or understand why Trinitarians believe as we do.
Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,11:11) Keith and Thinker, Keith wrote:
Quote
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21)
Also, regarding “all things came into being” I believe that is relative. In Col 1 we see that the all things are what is IN heaven and ON earth.Kathi
Kathi, John wanted to make sure that you got the point so the full quote is…
“All things came into being through Him, AND **APART FROM HIM** NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING”. John 1:3
The word for “being” is Strong's number #1096
giðnomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling
Ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
Parts of SpeechTDNT
Verb 1:681,117
Definitionto become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events
to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public
to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought
to become, be made
Translated Words
KJV (630) – God forbid + (3361), 15; arise, 13; be, 255; be done, 63; be fulfilled, 3; be made, 69; be married to, 3; be preferred, 3; become, 47; come, 52; come to pass, 82; done, 2; have, 5; misc, 4; not tr, 14;Did you notice that the word ginomai has a definition which indicates a finished work? You see, before the light of day one, the heavens and the earth were NOT FINISHED.
Kathi
Hi KathiAlso notice Kathi it says “begin to be”!
So in other words everything that began, came by him or through him and came into being and was also finished by him!
It also says “Without him” nothing came into being (began to be)!
WJ
Hi Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,11:11) Did you notice that the word ginomai has a definition which indicates a finished work? You see, before the light of day one, the heavens and the earth were NOT FINISHED.
So are you saying that in the Genesis account The Father started the work and the Son finished it?Can you show this in the Genesis creation.
On the seventh day “God” rested from all his work!
WJ
Keith and Thinker,
Keith wrote:
Quote I took the liberty to commentate on your next set of passages from Proverbs if you do not mind. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,23:21)
There are two here also:
Prov 8:22-30
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 “From everlasting I was established” (seems to be from Eternity if it was Jesus), “From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth” (The earliest times of the earth would be Genesis 1:1, 2 before the light of day was created). 24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth” When there were no springs abounding with water” (Yep, definitely before Genesis 1:2 because there was no water). 25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. (again before Gen 1:2 but for sure before the light of day) 27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, (Heavens in the plural, has to be Genesis 1:1) When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep (Definitely Genesis 1:2 before the light of day, “the face of the deep”), 28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; (Could be after the light of day)30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
NASUOk Keith, I am going to comment on your comments (my response is in italics):
Prov 8:22-30
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 “From everlasting I was established” (seems to be from Eternity if it was Jesus)OT:5769 <l*ou
`owlam (o-lawm'); or `olam (o-lawm'); from OT:5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:Gen 6:4
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
KJVSo, that which is translated as “from everlasting” in Prov. 8, is translated “of old” in the above verse. Therefore it does not unambiguously mean “always existent.”
“From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth” (The earliest times of the earth would be Genesis 1:1, 2 before the light of day was created).
The earth is still in the same condition during day 1 as it was in Genesis 1:1 and 2. It is still formless and void. The earth is still in its earliest time since before this formless and void condition there was no earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth” When there were no springs abounding with water” (Yep, definitely before Genesis 1:2 because there was no water).
There was the “deep” before day one but the deep was one body of water, it was not “depths” plural. It was after day one that the water became separated and became “depths” plural.
25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. (again before Gen 1:2 but for sure before the light of day)
Gen 1:9-10
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV
The dry land was made and called earth after day one. It was made on day three.27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, (Heavens in the plural, has to be Genesis 1:1)
The heavens were not established before day one. Established would mean in a firm way and we know that it was after day one that the “atmosphere” heaven was established in a firm way, not before day one.
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep (Definitely Genesis 1:2 before the light of day, “the face of the deep”),
Prov 8:27-28
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
KJVThe circle was set when the clouds were separated during day two.
28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; (Could be after the light of day)30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
The above happened obviously after day one.
Kathi
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,11:39) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,11:11) Did you notice that the word ginomai has a definition which indicates a finished work? You see, before the light of day one, the heavens and the earth were NOT FINISHED.
So are you saying that in the Genesis account The Father started the work and the Son finished it?Can you show this in the Genesis creation.
On the seventh day “God” rested from all his work!
WJ
Keith,
Yes, I am indicating that the Father started the work and the Son finished it. It was after day one that the heavens and the earth were finished, not before.Kathi
Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2009,02:48) Keith and Thinker,
Why does it say “You” did thus and so and then “He” did thus and so, if there weren't two cooperating in creation?Kathi,
Please see the online Hebrew Interlinear. The verses in our translations that say “He” would be better translated “The One who”:Quote Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 The One who lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 The One who sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 The One who made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.The Psalmist was simply saying You…The One who…
Example: I find that you are an intelligent lady. The one who can hold her own with men in debate.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa104.pdf
But if you're going to out think thethinker you will have to do your homework.
I need a nap. I have a headache sitting at the computer today. When I wake up I have to go to see the podiatrist. My heel spur is acting up. I will reply to your second post later.thinker
Hi Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
Ok Keith, I am going to comment on your comments (my response is in italics):
Prov 8:22-30
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 “From everlasting I was established” (seems to be from Eternity if it was Jesus)OT:5769 <l*ou
`owlam (o-lawm'); or `olam (o-lawm'); from OT:5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:Gen 6:4
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
KJVSo, that which is translated as “from everlasting” in Prov. 8, is translated “of old” in the above verse. Therefore it does not unambiguously mean “always existent.”
Ok, but it is unambiguous that if it was Jesus he existed “at the beginning of his way, “Before his works of old” unless you do not think that Genesis 1:1, 2 were part of his (the Fathers) works of Old. But it must be because you think the Father did the creating of Genesis 1:1, 2 yet he was there before (the Fathers works of old) Right? For the Father is the Lord in verse 1 according to you!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
“From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth” (The earliest times of the earth would be Genesis 1:1, 2 before the light of day was created).The earth is still in the same condition during day 1 as it was in Genesis 1:1 and 2. It is still formless and void. The earth is still in its earliest time since before this formless and void condition there was no earth.
But again Kathi, “from the beginning, from the earliest time of the earth” agrees with “at the beginning of his way before his works of old”, which you claim is Genesis 1:1, 2, the Fathers creation, yet he says he was there.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth” When there were no springs abounding with water” (Yep, definitely before Genesis 1:2 because there was no water).There was the “deep” before day one but the deep was one body of water, it was not “depths” plural. It was after day one that the water became separated and became “depths” plural.
What? It clearly says there were “NO DEPTHS” period! No Depths means ‘Zero”, which clearly says that he was there before even Genesis 1:1, 2 which shows there was a face of the deep.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. (again before Gen 1:2 but for sure before the light of day)Gen 1:9-10
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV
The dry land was made and called earth after day one. It was made on day three.
Come on Kathi, are you just shutting your eyes here?It says “, …Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, “AND LET THE DRY LAND APPEAR”: and it was so.
10 And God called “THE DRY LAND EARTH”;The dry land was already there in Genesis 1:2 but the earth was without form for the waters covered the entire earth!
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
27 “When He established the heavens, I was there, (Heavens in the plural, has to be Genesis 1:1)The heavens were not established before day one. Established would mean in a firm way and we know that it was after day one that the “atmosphere” heaven was established in a firm way, not before day one.
Not so, because the heavens also included the Kingdom of God, the Angels, and the expanse of the Universe before he set the stars in the heavens! You are speaking of the sky which is singular and not the plural heavens!Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08)
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep (Definitely Genesis 1:2 before the light of day, “the face of the deep”),Prov 8:27-28
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
KJVThe circle was set when the clouds were separated during day two.
Where do you see the word circle in day 2 or any where in Genesis 1. The scripture says “when he prepared the heavens”, he was there, what was he preparing the heavens for, but to hang the stars in it? That implies the foundation and not the finished work.When a builder builds a house it is done in stages, but each stage is complete in itself.
For instance the carpenter frames the house and when he is finished, then the brick layer and the electrician and the painter etc, complete their work until the House is built.
Genesis seems to imply stages in which the creation was made, each complete in itself.
But God is the One that created from Genesis 1:1 and on, and there is no indication at all that the Father started the creation and the Son finished it. Clearly scriptures show Jesus was there in the beginning of all things and God rested on the Sabbath from all his works!
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:08) 28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; (Could be after the light of day)30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, The above happened obviously after day one.
Kathi
And the point is? Jesus was there during the whole creation, not part of it! The burden of proof is on you and you lost that battle in the first verse of the text for you say it
is the Father that created the heavens and Jesus finished the work.But verse one says…
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 “From everlasting I was established”
You say the Lord here is the Father at the beginning of his way and “BEFORE his works of Old, (Genesis 1:1, 2 before the light) yet if it was Jesus, then he was there before the light of day!
Do you think “Wisdom” was not present before all things?
Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 04 2009,12:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2009,02:48) Keith and Thinker,
Why does it say “You” did thus and so and then “He” did thus and so, if there weren't two cooperating in creation?Kathi,
Please see the online Hebrew Interlinear. The verses in our translations that say “He” would be better translated “The One who”:Quote Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, 2 Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. 3 The One who lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; 4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. 5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away. 8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them. 9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth. 10 The One who sends forth springs in the valleys; They flow between the mountains; 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild donkeys quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; They lift up their voices among the branches. 13 He waters the mountains from His upper chambers; The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works. 14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. 16 The trees of the Lord drink their fill, The cedars of Lebanon which He planted, 17 Where the birds build their nests, And the stork, whose home is the fir trees.
Ps 104:19-20
19 The One who made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting.
20 You appoint darkness and it becomes night, In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.The Psalmist was simply saying You…The One who…
Example: I find that you are an intelligent lady. The one who can hold her own with men in debate.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa104.pdf
But if you're going to out think thethinker you will have to do your homework.
I need a nap. I have a headache sitting at the computer today. When I wake up I have to go to see the podiatrist. My heel spur is acting up. I will reply to your second post later.thinker
Thinker,
Please note that in the interlinear you linked to there are the words “messengers of him,” “chariot of him,” “rebuke of you” et al. There are two being spoken of here.Sorry for your headache…I hope you feel better soon,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,11:39) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,11:11) Did you notice that the word ginomai has a definition which indicates a finished work? You see, before the light of day one, the heavens and the earth were NOT FINISHED.
So are you saying that in the Genesis account The Father started the work and the Son finished it?Can you show this in the Genesis creation.
On the seventh day “God” rested from all his work!
WJ
Keith,
Yes, I am indicating that the Father started the work and the Son finished it. It was after day one that the heavens and the earth were finished, not before.Kathi
Hi KathiYou have not validated scripturally you point.
For you are saying that the Fathers work when he made the heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1 was then created without Jesus.
You have no proof that Jesus finished the Fathers work for there is no distinction between “God” in Genesis 1:1,2 and the rest of the Genesis account.
Your own proof text disagrees with that thought…
Prov 8:22-30
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old“. 23 “From everlasting I was established”If this is Jesus then he is with the Father before he does his work in Genesis 1:1, 2.
So it cannot be that the Son was born and finished the work after then.
Also there is not even a hint of the “Light” doing the creating as you assume!
The light contrast the darkness and is called “day” and the evening and the morning was the first day!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,13:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2009,12:17) Keith,
You wrote:Quote This is the same word that is used in the NT scriptures a zillion times in refering to the Kingdom of God also, which is above the natural heavens or the expanse of the Universe, and the writer uses the term “In the beginning” pointing to Genesis 1:1, 2 where the foundations of the earth was laid, and verses 11, 12 verify that this same creation that was created, (not part of it) will perish and like an old garment he will fold them up, therefore blowing away any assumption that Jesus only created what was in the heavens! I do not think that the creation account included the kingdom of God. I think that it was about the things that would perish, it was about the heavens and the earth that is relative to our realm. The kingdom of God lasts forever.
Kathi
KathiIf what you say is true then God had a Kingdom that had no occupants but himself.
Without occupants to rule there is no Kingdom!
Scriptures teach there will be new heavens and a new earth.
The Kingdom of heaven had a begining but no end as you say, but it is the Kingdom of “Heaven”, there will be a new heaven but the rule of God remains!
WJ
Keith,
The heavens that are going to be destroyed are the two that are in our realm…the space where the stars and sun and moon are, and the atmosphere. IMOKathi
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