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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,05:17) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,13:04) WJ That's right, until;
1Cr 15:25 For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cr 15:27 For he (the Father) hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he (the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (the Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.Georg
YesThat is right untill he (Jesus) subjects himself and the Kingdom back to the Father “SO THAT” God may be all in all!
Tell me Georg how if Jesus is not subject to the Father at this time and he has all things and all authority and all power and upholds all things by the word of his power and it is by him all things consist, that he cannot be God, equal to the Father!
Scriptures call him God, why do you reject this?
WJ
Keith,Georg's reply is so typical of the anti-trinitarian dance routine. Tertullian said, “God must be believed on in His own dispensation.”
This means that the people of God in a given age are bound to obey Him according to the stipulations He gives to that age. When Paul wrote they were in the age of Jesus Christ as “King of kings and Lord of lords.”
Christ's subjection to the Father is not the issue of our age. To deny His present authority on the basis of His future subjection is invalid and even disobedient.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2010,13:31) Hi WJ,
Is logic a sufficient foundation for you in establishing doctrine?
Is not scripture meant to be that rock?
NHMy point defys logic Nick!
For Jesus to own everything, including “All the Authority and Power” of an “Infinite God” defys logic and leaves you with a conundrum!
How can you reduce Jesus to being less than God knowing these facts?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,05:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2010,13:31) Hi WJ,
Is logic a sufficient foundation for you in establishing doctrine?
Is not scripture meant to be that rock?
NHMy point defys logic Nick!
For Jesus to own everything, including “All the Authority and Power” of an “Infinite God” defys logic and leaves you with a conundrum!
How can you reduce Jesus to being less than God knowing these facts?
WJ
The statement:Jesus turned footwashing water into superb wine instantaneously.
is not logical in natural terms. So NO reason and logic alone are not sufficient to establish something worthy of belief.
You need a Divine authority.
hi WJ
Jesus received powers ,he do not possess the power before it was given to him,right ?
Jesus was not God wen he was born ? was he God wen he was anointed ? no
Jesus was a man for 31/2 years he performed all of the will of God ,not his,he was not God
the miracles he did were done for him the same way with the apostles,so was he God there??
no he was a man all THE way until dead,
his spirit has to have knowledge of who he really was. but it was not that he was God the father.
DO I HAVE IT ALL WRONG???
terraricca said:
Quote the miracles he did were done for him the same way with the apostles,so was he God there??
t,Nope! The apostles did miracles in “Jesus' name.” And Jesus NEVER said, “Not on my own strength.” He said, “Not on my own authority.” There is a HUGE difference.
A body guard has the strength of his own to take a man down. But he acts on the authority of another.
Jesus had the strength of His own to perform miracles.
“This beginning of miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.” John 2:11
He had the power of His own to perform miracles. It was on the authority of another that He acted. He NEVER said, “Not on my own strength.” He said, “Not on my own authority.”
Exactly what Bible is it you read?
thinker
tt
BEING IN AUTORITY DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO IT,THE CENTURION SAYS TO CHRIST ME TOO I AM IN AUTORITY I SAY TO ONE DO THAT AND HE DOES AND TO ANOTHER DO THIS AND SO ON
THE APOSTLES SAME WAY THE HAVE RECIEVED AUTORITY FROM CHRIST TO DO THOSE MIRACLE BUT THEY WERE NOT THE ONES WHO DID OR REALIZE THEM
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2010,14:14) hi WJ Jesus received powers ,he do not possess the power before it was given to him,right ?
Jesus was not God wen he was born ? was he God wen he was anointed ? no
Jesus was a man for 31/2 years he performed all of the will of God ,not his,he was not God
the miracles he did were done for him the same way with the apostles,so was he God there??
no he was a man all THE way until dead,
his spirit has to have knowledge of who he really was. but it was not that he was God the father.
DO I HAVE IT ALL WRONG???
TWhy do you serve a Jesus that is still in the flesh?
Jesus is no longer in the flesh, so please stop with your Arianistic and carnal ideas of what and who Jesus is right now!
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 20 2010,06:44) tt BEING IN AUTORITY DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO IT,THE CENTURION SAYS TO CHRIST ME TOO I AM IN AUTORITY I SAY TO ONE DO THAT AND HE DOES AND TO ANOTHER DO THIS AND SO ON
THE APOSTLES SAME WAY THE HAVE RECIEVED AUTORITY FROM CHRIST TO DO THOSE MIRACLE BUT THEY WERE NOT THE ONES WHO DID OR REALIZE THEM
t,
I was coming against your false notion that Jesus did not have the inner powers or strength to perform miracles. He certainly did possess such powers of His own (John 2:11).But He acted on the authority of another. He used His powers only in conjunction with what He saw His Father doing.
thinker
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2010,14:44) tt BEING IN AUTORITY DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO IT,THE CENTURION SAYS TO CHRIST ME TOO I AM IN AUTORITY I SAY TO ONE DO THAT AND HE DOES AND TO ANOTHER DO THIS AND SO ON
THE APOSTLES SAME WAY THE HAVE RECIEVED AUTORITY FROM CHRIST TO DO THOSE MIRACLE BUT THEY WERE NOT THE ONES WHO DID OR REALIZE THEM
tYou are right they did not do the miracles, God did, or should I say “Jesus did”.
And his name through faith in his (Jesus) name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him (Jesus) hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. Acts 3:16
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:53) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2010,14:44) tt BEING IN AUTORITY DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO IT,THE CENTURION SAYS TO CHRIST ME TOO I AM IN AUTORITY I SAY TO ONE DO THAT AND HE DOES AND TO ANOTHER DO THIS AND SO ON
THE APOSTLES SAME WAY THE HAVE RECIEVED AUTORITY FROM CHRIST TO DO THOSE MIRACLE BUT THEY WERE NOT THE ONES WHO DID OR REALIZE THEM
tYou are right they did not do the miracles, God did, or should I say “Jesus did”.
And his name through faith in his (Jesus) name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him (Jesus) hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. Acts 3:16
WJ
terraricca goes down for the full count!
thinker
wj
I BELIEVE THAT UNLESS THE RECOGNITION OF WHAT JESUS WAS IS THE BSE OF ALL WHAT COME S IN THE LATTER PART OF HIS LIVE AND HIS WORKS
TWhy do you serve a Jesus that is still in the flesh?
Jesus is no longer in the flesh, so please stop with your Arianistic and carnal ideas of what and who Jesus is right now
TT
“This beginning of miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.” John 2:11
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MIRACLE?Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,05:30) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,04:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:55) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39) This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.
GeorgWell lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification!
Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”?
Blessings WJ
WJThe subject of this debate is, who is our savior?
Yes, I believe Jesus now has immortality.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
But he did not have it when he was here on earth, and died for us, how could he have died if he was immortal then?
Georg
There is no debate on who Is our Savior. The apostle John said that the “Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14)“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”
John said that “we have SEEN and TESTIFY that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”
The apostles didn't “debate” it. They TESTIFIED that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Where does Georg get off debating it?
This is why I could never consider anti-trinitarianism. They always end up denying that Jesus is our Savior.
thinker
thinkerThere is no debating, not with some one that despises truth.
Pro 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.
Georg
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,02:28) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 26 2009,20:18) Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,07:02) Quote Christ's title as Savior implies that He is Divine. –thinker, “title confusion trick, god”
Now, thinker only believes that being called “savior” IMPLIES that someone is divine.
Before, he was asking how it is possible that someone be called “savior” and not be divine.THINKER, Are the others who are called savior also implied to be divine?
Come on David! Be honest man! You said on the Sharp's Rule thread that you started a thread called “Confusion Trick Savior which you clearly did not. You promised that my question would be answered in that thread. My question was this: Explain how Christ could be Savior without being God?Your OP in that thread was not about Christ's title as Savior but about the way the word “god” applies to Him. You didn't even mention Christ's title as Savior and you certainly did not answer my question. I believe you were being slick and evasive about it.
I did not say that being Savior implies that someone is divine. I said that Christ's being the Savior implies that He is divine.
Titus 2 says that it was Christ who redeemed us that HE might purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN POSSESSION. This means that if you are a christian then you belong to HIM. This implies divinity dude!
So let's look at Sharp's rule along with the context:
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
It says that HE HIMSELF redeems us and makes us a pure people for HIS OWN POSSESSION. Sharp's rule stands!
Furthermore, your treatment of the word “god” was inconsistent with your own beliefs of the use of the word in John 1:1. You cut n pasted commentary from trinitarians who do not apply the “rulers” meaning in John 1:1. Neither do the JW's apply that meaning in John 1:1.
“I – I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11 NWT). Jesus Christ is the Savior. Therefore, He is Jehovah.
thinker
Bump for DavidDavid says that Jack didn't answer him, but this post is an answer and it is true.
David cannot disprove sharps rule and neither can he refute Jacks point about Jesus purifying for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN POSSESSION.
Blessings WJ
Maybe he did answer me, but since it was nonsense, I dismissed it.Is this his answer:
I did not say that being Savior implies that someone is divine. I said that Christ's being the Savior implies that He is divine.
We are on the topic of whether Jesus being called Savior means he is God.
Jack argues that one reason we know Jesus is God is because he is called “savior.”
So I ask: Does being called savior imply someone is divine?His answer apparently is that When Jesus is called Savior, it implies he is divine, but not when others are. Hence, its NOT PROOF AT ALL. — AT LEAST, NOT LOGICAL PROOF.
It's extraordinarily circular.
His argument goes like this: One reason we know Jesus is God almighty is because Jesus is called Savior. But, when others are called savior, it doesn't prove anything. It only proves something when Jesus is called savior.
If being called Savior does not IN ITSELF indicated divinity, then what justification does anyone have to say that Jesus being called “savior” is proof of anything? If it is an argument, it has just been shown to be a tremendously week one.
This question was asked:
Show me how Jesus could be savior and not be God?
Well,
show me how Othniel or Ehud could be saviors and not be God?“savior” means someone who saves others from something. God used others to save Israel and used Jesus to save mankind. God is the ultimate savior. But the Bible shows that many have been called saviors in one respect or another.
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,13:29) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,05:30) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,04:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:55) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39) This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.
GeorgWell lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification!
Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”?
Blessings WJ
WJThe subject of this debate is, who is our savior?
Yes, I believe Jesus now has immortality.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
But he did not have it when he was here on earth, and died for us, how could he have died if he was immortal then?
Georg
There is no debate on who Is our Savior. The apostle John said that the “Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14)“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”
John said that “we have SEEN and TESTIFY that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”
The apostles didn't “debate” it. They TESTIFIED that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Where does Georg get off debating it?
This is why I could never consider anti-trinitarianism. They always end up denying that Jesus is our Savior.
thinker
thinkerThere is no debating, not with some one that despises truth.
Pro 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.
Georg
So I guess we should all leave you, Georg!
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