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WJ…..Interesting could you tell us who Jesus was Praying to was it himself or someone other then he. And When he went to (HIS) GOD and (OUR) GOD and (HIS) FATHER and (OUR) FATHER. was that himself he went to. You fail to see Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but yet you TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES have HIM CREATING the WHOLE WORLD> Your words and Jesus' are not the same WJ. Again i ASK for the hundredth time, WHERE IN (SCRIPTURE) DID JESUS (EVERY) SAY HE CREATED ANYTHING, WHERE DID HE EVER SAY HE WAS A GOD WHO CREATED EVERYTHING. Forcing the text is what TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES are all about. MAKE IT SAY WHAT IT IN FACT DOES NOT REALLY SAY. Dump that garbage WJ and use your GOD given skills for His (TRUE) WORK . IMO
WJ says “But that is your choice and as far as Heb 1:2 the writer confirms his intent in verse 10 when he shows the Father attributing the creation of the universe with Jesus own hands!
That is clear. You can choose not to believe it if you like, but the scriptures tell us all things came into being by him (Jesus) and nothing came into being without him! John 1:3.”
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 tells us everything came FROM God THROUGH Jesus.
By your reasoning, the prophets are God, too. Because warnings came to the Israelites FROM God THROUGH the prophets.
And why won't you answer my question Captain Picard? I've posted it 3 different places. If trinity says co-equal and co-eternal, how do you explain Romans 6:9 and John 14:28?
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 31 2010,15:40) WJ…..Interesting could you tell us who Jesus was Praying to was it himself or someone other then he. And When he went to (HIS) GOD and (OUR) GOD and (HIS) FATHER and (OUR) FATHER. was that himself he went to. You fail to see Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but yet you TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES have HIM CREATING the WHOLE WORLD> Your words and Jesus' are not the same WJ. Again i ASK for the hundredth time, WHERE IN (SCRIPTURE) DID JESUS (EVERY) SAY HE CREATED ANYTHING, WHERE DID HE EVER SAY HE WAS A GOD WHO CREATED EVERYTHING. Forcing the text is what TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES are all about. MAKE IT SAY WHAT IT IN FACT DOES NOT REALLY SAY. Dump that garbage WJ and use your GOD given skills for His (TRUE) WORK . IMO
GeneSure when you can tell me why you don't call on your human!
Oh thats right human is a class of being! So if I want to get specific I should say “Why don't you call on your Father.
Do you see how your logic fails?
You think the term God is exclusive to the Father, that is your problem. But you have to get out the whiteout, because the scriptures call the Father as well as Jesus and the Holy Spirit God!
Do you deny this Gene?
Or do you think that Trinitarians are Modalist?
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll @ Jan. 31 2010,15:56) WJ says “But that is your choice and as far as Heb 1:2 the writer confirms his intent in verse 10 when he shows the Father attributing the creation of the universe with Jesus own hands! That is clear. You can choose not to believe it if you like, but the scriptures tell us all things came into being by him (Jesus) and nothing came into being without him! John 1:3.”
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 tells us everything came FROM God THROUGH Jesus.
By your reasoning, the prophets are God, too. Because warnings came to the Israelites FROM God THROUGH the prophets.
And why won't you answer my question Captain Picard? I've posted it 3 different places. If trinity says co-equal and co-eternal, how do you explain Romans 6:9 and John 14:28?
MikeYou are new here, and I suggest that you go to the Trinity threads and catch up on what we Trinitarians do believe!
But for short…
Your questios has been answered many times here!
As far as Romans 6:9, here is the link of one discussion… Click here
As far as John 14:28 you might want to start Here
And Here!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
Surely you are beyond the kindergarten stage and can let scripture speak without interference?
Trinity will evaporate when you get to know God and His Son.Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:57) Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”? Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
I see people continue to avoid the question.The argument is given that Jesus is the True God, because they say, every one called 'god' is either the true God or a false god.
They believe there are only these two categories. If there were another category, their whole logic would fall apart, and their heads would explode.
Since the angels are definitely called “gods” and since trinitarians on here believe that everyone called “god” is either the one true God or a false god, my question remains………………………………………………………………………..
………..unanswered.Quote The Angels are not Gods at all! The word “Eloyim” can be interpreted as kings, judges, men, or angels depending on context!
Is this seriously your defence, WJ?
I think you have it quite backward. Kings, judges, men, and angels have been called “gods.” Even Moses was made a “god” to Pharoah. But the word “eloyim” does not mean king or judge, or man, etc.
But if your logic was accurate, how do we know theos cannot be “interpreted” to mean king, judge, angel, or man? Shall we interpret “theos” in the NT to mean those things?
It's like you make this stuff up as you go.
A king, a judge, etc can be called a trinitiarin. But that does not mean trinitiarian means or can be interpreted to mean king or judge.
Anyway, my question is pretty much a yes or no type question. If you cannot answer it with the words “true God” or “False gods” then there must be some other category that you deny exists.
Quote David The Angels are not Gods at all!
–wj
WJ, Bible, Bible, WJ. There, you are introduced. Now get acquainted.
Perhaps you could read my very first post.
Quote Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include: 1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps…,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 & Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible – Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), – p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor's Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
As I stated in the first post,
Just because it sounds strange to our modern ears is no reason to ignore the facts. And no reason to take advantage of that fact by claiming that only two understandings of the words theos and elohim are possible: “God” and “false gods.”
The idea that anyone called by the word “god” is either “The God” or a “false god” is a Title Confusion Trick.
Do not be fooled.
People who support this title confusion trick like to randomly through out words like “polytheism” (A SCARE TACTIC) as though that were a Bible word. The worship of other gods is certainly condemned in the Bible, no question. Jesus directed worship to his Father. We do not worship other gods.
But make no mistake…..
The Bible does use the word “god” with reference to ones who were neither “false gods” or “The God.”Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2010,17:49) Quote David The Angels are not Gods at all!
–wj
WJ, Bible, Bible, WJ. There, you are introduced. Now get acquainted.
Perhaps you could read my very first post.
Quote Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include: 1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps…,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 & Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible – Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), – p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor's Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
David,So what? The name “Son” in reference to Jesus is by far superior to the name “god” in reference to the angels:
…having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?So angels are called “gods.” Big whoop! Jesus Christ is called “Son” which is a name that is a “more excellent name.”
You prove nothing. Grow in knowledge dude!
thinker
Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2010,01:49) WJ, Bible, Bible, WJ. There, you are introduced. Now get acquainted.
Perhaps you could read my very first post.
DavidWhy do you not give us a single scripture that supports your belief! Where is the scriptures that proves Angels or men are Gods.
You show a bunch of commentators that you claim support you.
But you show no individual quotes of those Trinitarians that support you. Even if you do what does that prove? YHWH clearly states there are no “Other Gods” and Paul makes it clear that there is “Only One God” and all else are so-called Gods made by men!
For instance…
You quote…
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
Other translations render the word 'elohiym Judges or rulers…
Ps 82:1
NLT
A psalm of Asaph. God presides over heaven's court; he pronounces “judgment on the judges“:
NASB
God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the “midst of the rulers“.
Strong's H430 – 'elohiym
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God
David, do you see that the word 'elohiym can be translated in more than one way?
If it can be translated in different ways then you have to look at context and measure it with other scriptures don't you?
Polytheism is the belief in more than one 'elohiym or theos!
So if the context shows that it is not YHWH then it must be and should be translated Rulers or judges or whatever it is refering to or else it contradicts YHWHs own words.
Why do you not accept these scriptures that deny what you are saying?
…We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one“. For “even if there are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism?
WJ
Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2010,01:45) Anyway, my question is pretty much a yes or no type question. If you cannot answer it with the words “true God” or “False gods” then there must be some other category that you deny exists.
DavidYour question is a foolish attempt to support your belief in Polytheism.
Your logic goes like this…
The President of the United states is a woman!
Is he a true woman or is he a false woman?
He is not a woman at all, and neither are Angels God at all!
And if their is any woman president of the USA then she is false and not the president at all!
WJ
Hi WJ,
It is you who promotes the worship of two or three gods.
The God of Israel in the Father of the Lord Jesus.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2010,06:58) Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2010,01:49) WJ, Bible, Bible, WJ. There, you are introduced. Now get acquainted.
Perhaps you could read my very first post.
DavidWhy do you not give us a single scripture that supports your belief! Where is the scriptures that proves Angels or men are Gods.
You show a bunch of commentators that you claim support you.
But you show no individual quotes of those Trinitarians that support you. Even if you do what does that prove? YHWH clearly states there are no “Other Gods” and Paul makes it clear that there is “Only One God” and all else are so-called Gods made by men!
For instance…
You quote…
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
Other translations render the word 'elohiym Judges or rulers…
Ps 82:1
NLT
A psalm of Asaph. God presides over heaven's court; he pronounces “judgment on the judges“:
NASB
God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the “midst of the rulers“.
Strong's H430 – 'elohiym
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God
David, do you see that the word 'elohiym can be translated in more than one way?
If it can be translated in different ways then you have to look at context and measure it with other scriptures don't you?
Polytheism is the belief in more than one 'elohiym or theos!
So if the context shows that it is not YHWH then it must be and should be translated Rulers or judges or whatever it is refering to or else it contradicts YHWHs own words.
Why do you not accept these scriptures that deny what you are saying?
…We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one“. For “even if there are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism?
WJ
WJ, you say: The angels are not gods at all.But, why does the Bible use that term to refer to them?
You also said that I show no quotes of trinitarians that support me. Perhaps you completely neglected the first post, as I think you must have. EVERY quote seems to be from trinitarian sources.
I know that Elohiym can refer to different things, but it can't really be honestly translated in those ways. You make a big deal out of it when “theos” for example is translated “godlike ones” in some Bibles. Even though Elohiym/Theos can refer to “divine ones” it is true that it's not the most accurate to play with the translation like this.
If it is the word “elohiym” (god), it should be translated “god.”
Otherwise, you dont have a study Bible. You have one of those children Bible's with the pictures, where they don't really care about was actually said. (If that's the level we are now at, I understand.)
Quote Polytheism is the belief in more than one 'elohiym or theos!
Every dictionary provides 2 defintions. The one above, and also: “the WORSHIP of more than one god.”The Bible (which is what we're interested in, and not the dictionaries) continually says the worship of other gods is wrong.
But it does also speak of angels as Elohiym.
So, given that, let me ask you WJ: Do you believe in more than one Elohiym?
Clearly, as your own logic points out, Elohiym is a descriptive word, that can be applied to many different ones.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2010,07:23) Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2010,01:45) Anyway, my question is pretty much a yes or no type question. If you cannot answer it with the words “true God” or “False gods” then there must be some other category that you deny exists.
DavidYour question is a foolish attempt to support your belief in Polytheism.
Your logic goes like this…
The President of the United states is a woman!
Is he a true woman or is he a false woman?
He is not a woman at all, and neither are Angels God at all!
And if their is any woman president of the USA then she is false and not the president at all!
WJ
WJIf as you say, angels are not gods (Elohyim) “at all” why does the Bible use that exact term to describe them?
Please answer this question directly.
Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2010,18:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2010,07:23) Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2010,01:45) Anyway, my question is pretty much a yes or no type question. If you cannot answer it with the words “true God” or “False gods” then there must be some other category that you deny exists.
DavidYour question is a foolish attempt to support your belief in Polytheism.
Your logic goes like this…
The President of the United states is a woman!
Is he a true woman or is he a false woman?
He is not a woman at all, and neither are Angels God at all!
And if their is any woman president of the USA then she is false and not the president at all!
WJ
WJIf as you say, angels are not gods (Elohyim) “at all” why does the Bible use that exact term to describe them?
Please answer this question directly.
David,You are by far more intelligent than all the other anti-trinitarians here. So why the mental block? The people of God have only ONE God.
thinker
Quote David, You are by far more intelligent than all the other anti-trinitarians here. So why the mental block? The people of God have only ONE God.
thinker
Are you saying i'm more intelligent because of the question I asked. If so, why not answer it?
Or are you saying I'm more intelligent as a sort of mock flattery, as if to say, I should be smart enough to see that God is a trinity?Thinker. As it turns out, I actually have no mental block. The truth is, I can see your side. I can see all the scriptures you present and I even understand the logic behind them. But the problem is, most of those scriptures can be taken more than one way.
But when I weigh those scriptures against the other side, to me it seems there is far more evidence on the other side, and that the other side has clearer scriptures, not just more of them.
That leads me to conclude that those scriptures which were unclear are meant to be understood in an anti-trinitarian way.
It's the same with translation. When one scripture can be translated in a couple of ways, which way fits the best with clear scriptures that can only be translated one way?
I do see bias in all camps. It's a matter not in determining which has the least bias, but in determining which is thinking the clearest.
WJ is not going to answer my question is he? What should I think?
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