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Nick,
I believe that the thief died after Jesus as they broke the legs of the thieves (so they would die before sunset) but when they got to Jesus, He was dead already and they ran the spear into His side but did not break His legs. However I agree that the thieves died under the old covenant, the difference is that one of them went to paradise the holding area for the rightous. This thief may have had the shortest stay as I believe these were the “captives” Jesus set free. When He said “today you will be in paradise with Me” He meant that day not “it will seem like today” as some teach (believing that the soul sleeps).My opinion
There is a need to be baptised, simply because the Bible says so, as you have pointed out. But I don't believe that a person who receives Christ on their death bed and is unable to be baptised will be excluded from eternal life.
Baptism, like the feasts and the sabbath, is a shadow of things to come.
The thief was baptised with blood. A concession allowed to believers who were not able to receive baptism after their belief and repentance and instead were martyred. According to early church tradition.
Mark 10
38″You don't know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”39″We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”
Hi all:
The Apostle Paul states: “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved it is the power of God”. (1 Co. 1:17-18)
Paul was not implying that water baptism was not necessary, but his role was that of an evangelist. We are saved by faith, and as Rom. 10:17 states: “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”. So Paul was saying that He was sent to preach the gospel so that people would believe in the Lord Jesus and what he has done for humanity through the cross.
All believers should be baptized in water that is the word of God, but God has shown me that if a person is on their death believes with a repentant heart. All that person has to do is ask for forgiveness and he will be saved.
We know that the Word of God is true, therefore, to be consistent with the above statement, my understanding of Jesus statement: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. The “water” here is not water baptism but is the Word of God. As WOutlaw stated those who died under the old covenant were not baptized in water and neither was the thief. They were saved by faith. Of course, those who were saved from the old covenant had to be stiving to obey the Law of God. Hence, faith without works is dead. We are baptized in water because we have believed God's Word with a repentant heart.
God Bless
Hi MS:
I believe that without the blood of Christ being shed for us, there is no remission of our sins and we die in them. Gate closed. No entry.
I also believe that for whatever reason, God has chosen to use water baptism as some sort of indicator, like Jesus said to the man at the pool of Bethesda… wilt thou be made whole? If yes, then get up, take your mat and get going already! (um, not an exact quote
) You and I know that Jesus could have stood that man on his feet and sent him running like Carl Lewis or better, but he chose to use this process.So too do I believe water baptism to be. It means something to God and he wants us to remember it: e.g. DELIVERANCE.
There was the shedding of the passover lamb. All who did not partake or have a part in it, had a first born die in their family even to the animal kingdom. It was so dreadful.Jesus came to fully represent that unto a better covenant for all mankind.
Then still came the crossing of the red sea and the Jordan River. At the Red sea, Pharoah's armies were totally annihilated, and the crossing of the Jordan meant that the children of Israel had arrived home from their long sojourning.
Thus, baptism still meant something in Israel even to the days of Christ. So he celebrated passover together with his disciples, even though he is the Lamb of God but God is unchanging, isn't he? And he was baptised and had his disciples baptised –at whose command?– either the Father's or his own as commanded by his Father (he did what his Father told him to, he said!). So Paul, the last Apostle who was saved, was also then baptized and he went on to baptize some though not a lot given his duties. As late as Acts 22 they were still baptizing!So I am not here to say people should be baptized and then go and live for the devil and expect to be saved, but that as much as depends on us, we walk humbly before God in the love and joy of Christ Jesus, letting him be our example, letting the word of God instruct us in the way we should go… as God guides us by his spirit. And the example is that Jesus together with his disciples were baptized. And as there is no impossibility with God and he makes not ashamed those who with the whole heart turn to him, the thief on the cross was also saved. It could literally be said that he knew Christ in his suffering. How many of us would forego water baptism and change places with the thief on the cross to so identify with Christ this way? I thank God for his mercy that he requires something so wondrously beautiful of me instead, and the rising aspect of it which is a hope of things to come.
The blood of Jesus or water baptism? Chicken before the egg or egg before the chicken? Not applicable I say. Both are necessary. God chose long ago to do it this way and we don't have to choose between the two as we can have both according to the scriptures, plus the spirit's baptism too just like Jesus and the apostles did! Amen!!
I say the scriptures very much encourage us to be water baptized as believers and followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Hbr 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that SPEAKETH BETTER THINGS THAN [that of] ABEL.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
WATER BAPTISM:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk 7:29 And all the people that heard [him], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luk 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
Jhn 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, Jhn 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:36 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:50:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and what is corruptible, the incorruptible…
then it needs be that flesh and blood must be somehow transformed into the life of Christ by the power of God (new creation -John 3:3f and Romans 8:1f), and through Christ, the second Adam…we having this newness of life in the spirit, and what is corruptible becoming incorruptible.I also think that water baptism is viewed as “works” by some, and this should not be.
When Israel were delivered from Egypt, God did all the work. They did have to walk across the Red Sea though — to the glory of God — but this could not have been considered as works, since it was not listed as a commandment among the list given to Moses. And yet, they were to annually commemorate the passover perpetually. Do we ourselves not celebrate the communion and the Lord's Supper at least once a year? If water baptism is “works” then how is communion NOT to be regarded equally? And yet, most of us would agree that Christians ought to celebrate communion in rememberance of Christ or we are no part of him.Well, over to you here, David!
Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 13 2007,19:58) Romans 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:50:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and what is corruptible, the incorruptible…
then it needs be that flesh and blood must be somehow transformed into the life of Christ by the power of God (new creation -John 3:3f and Romans 8:1f), and through Christ, the second Adam…we having this newness of life in the spirit, and what is corruptible becoming incorruptible.
Hi cubes,
Has the outer man,the flesh and blood man any future or is it condemned?
The inner man is transformed into the likeness of Christ and then we have put on the new imperishable body similar to the one of the man from heaven.Hi Nick,
My understanding is that the outer man, the tent is natural and so dies to take on a new image… that as Christ has 1 John 3:1f. This shall be revealed when Christ returns.
The innerman is changed and is yet being changed from glory to glory into his image; at his return we shall have the fullest resemblance to him.
Hi Nick,
I believe we are saying the same thing…but please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood.
Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 13 2007,19:58) Romans 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:50:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and what is corruptible, the incorruptible…
then it needs be that flesh and blood must be somehow transformed into the life of Christ by the power of God (new creation -John 3:3f and Romans 8:1f), and through Christ, the second Adam…we having this newness of life in the spirit, and what is corruptible becoming incorruptible.
Hi cubesThe adoption wit
redemption of our body.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Paul redeemed but still walking the earth
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,We have a goal
When that which is perfect has comePart of the problem is we have been bewitched that we are already something when we are nothing
Our hope has been stolen towards change1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.Hi charity and cubes,
So the body is redeemed and resurrected but then clothed, while those not in Christ are unclothed[naked]?
maybe
2 Corinthians 5:3
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2007,22:08) Hi charity and cubes,
So the body is redeemed and resurrected but then clothed, while those not in Christ are unclothed[naked]?
maybe
2 Corinthians 5:3
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
Hi NickGarments of praise for the spirit of heaviness
Anyone who is convinced to praise him in suffering
We all have all we needI see two deaths?
The thief died a death of the will of his nature
And his body put to death
Two deaths even in one day?Quote (charity @ Feb. 14 2007,02:48) Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 13 2007,19:58) Romans 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:50:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and what is corruptible, the incorruptible…
then it needs be that flesh and blood must be somehow transformed into the life of Christ by the power of God (new creation -John 3:3f and Romans 8:1f), and through Christ, the second Adam…we having this newness of life in the spirit, and what is corruptible becoming incorruptible.
Hi cubesThe adoption wit
redemption of our body.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Paul redeemed but still walking the earth
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,We have a goal
When that which is perfect has comePart of the problem is we have been bewitched that we are already something when we are nothing
Our hope has been stolen towards change1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.
Hi Charity,It's how I see it too:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And adding to what you've already said:
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
And1Cr 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 13 2007,22:34) Quote (charity @ Feb. 14 2007,02:48) Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 13 2007,19:58) Romans 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:50:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and what is corruptible, the incorruptible…
then it needs be that flesh and blood must be somehow transformed into the life of Christ by the power of God (new creation -John 3:3f and Romans 8:1f), and through Christ, the second Adam…we having this newness of life in the spirit, and what is corruptible becoming incorruptible.
Hi cubesThe adoption wit
redemption of our body.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Paul redeemed but still walking the earth
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,We have a goal
When that which is perfect has comePart of the problem is we have been bewitched that we are already something when we are nothing
Our hope has been stolen towards change1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.
Hi Charity,It's how I see it too:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.And adding to what you've already said:
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].And
1Cr 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Also cubes thisyour such a blessing
I also understand that the thief did not have time to water baptized?
Maybe he did?
But I consider Grace to have be made a Law at times
Even to the extent of selling directions to the kingdomcharity
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