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Hi,
Some would include the Spirit of God as another person in God.
We are to have fellowship with the Father and the Son.
That communion is in their Spiritual union, with us.Hi CB, I have read many scriptures supporting the trinitarian view but must say, no one has ever presented so many scriptures in one place, well done!. Have you noted not one is saying JHWH is Yeshua? If you want, divide the scriptures into “A” and “B” scriptures where a “A” scripture is a scripture which clearly support the view that YHWH is YESHUA (or at least in your opinion is stating it) and a “B” scripture is based on an assumption and if the assumption is true, it is in supportive of your view. (See example below) Present us with the “A” scriptures first so we can reply on them. It may make the debate slightly more meaningfull and less tedious. Will you do so?
Example of a B scripture is : Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
This is a B scripture because the scripture only support the view that the HS and God is the same person if you assume they are. If the assumption is incorrect, the scripture may have a totally different explanation.
Quote (JPR @ June 18 2008,08:44) Hi CB, I have read many scriptures supporting the trinitarian view but must say, no one has ever presented so many scriptures in one place, well done!. Have you noted not one is saying JHWH is Yeshua? If you want, divide the scriptures into “A” and “B” scriptures where a “A” scripture is a scripture which clearly support the view that YHWH is YESHUA (or at least in your opinion is stating it) and a “B” scripture is based on an assumption and if the assumption is true, it is in supportive of your view. (See example below) Present us with the “A” scriptures first so we can reply on them. It may make the debate slightly more meaningfull and less tedious. Will you do so? Example of a B scripture is : Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
This is a B scripture because the scripture only support the view that the HS and God is the same person if you assume they are. If the assumption is incorrect, the scripture may have a totally different explanation.
JPRI dont think CB is around any longer.
However I disagree with your premise. Simply because “God”, Theos, does not describe Identity.
The Father is God, Yeshua is God, and the Parakletos is God.
One God, Three persons, One Spirit.
Blessings! WJ
Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:24) WJ. If the Spirit s a person then the Spirit is Jesus's Father. Is that true?
Peace and Love Irene
IreneNo, it is not true, because the Spirit didnt take on the likeness of sinful flesh, and being found in fashion as a man.
The Word that was with God and was God did that!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,09:37) Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:24) WJ. If the Spirit s a person then the Spirit is Jesus's Father. Is that true?
Peace and Love Irene
IreneNo, it is not true, because the Spirit didnt take on the likeness of sinful flesh, and being found in fashion as a man.
The Word that was with God and was God did that!
But the Father is who is Spirit, is the Father of Jesus. They way you see it, is that the Spirit is. We all know that it is not true. But that is not the only reason the trinity is falce. There is only one Almighty Father of us all, and who is above all. So the trinity is not truth.
Peace and Love IreneHi WJ,
So the Spirit 'person ' is the father of Jesus?
Lk135And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
So why is the Father not his father?
Surely He is by His Spirit?Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,09:37) Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:24) WJ. If the Spirit s a person then the Spirit is Jesus's Father. Is that true?
Peace and Love Irene
IreneNo, it is not true, because the Spirit didnt take on the likeness of sinful flesh, and being found in fashion as a man.
The Word that was with God and was God did that!
But the Father is who is Spirit, is the Father of Jesus. They way you see it, is that the Spirit is. We all know that it is not true. But that is not the only reason the trinity is falce. There is only one Almighty Father of us all, and who is above all. So the trinity is not truth.
Peace and Love Irene
IreneWhy would you put words in my mouth.
Why dont you show me any statement that I have made that gives you the impression I believe the Holy Spirit is Jesus Father?
It seems to me that you, the Arians see it that way since you believe the Holy Spirit is the Father.
Irene. SHHH, Listen….
THE TRINTY IS FALSE…THE TRINITY IS FALSE…THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE…
You could say that until you are blue in the face and that doesnt make it so.
If it could have been proven false by scriptures, then it would have been gone centuries ago.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,10:00) Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,09:37) Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:24) WJ. If the Spirit s a person then the Spirit is Jesus's Father. Is that true?
Peace and Love Irene
IreneNo, it is not true, because the Spirit didnt take on the likeness of sinful flesh, and being found in fashion as a man.
The Word that was with God and was God did that!
But the Father is who is Spirit, is the Father of Jesus. They way you see it, is that the Spirit is. We all know that it is not true. But that is not the only reason the trinity is falce. There is only one Almighty Father of us all, and who is above all. So the trinity is not truth.
Peace and Love Irene
IreneWhy would you put words in my mouth.
Why dont you show me any statement that I have made that gives you the impression I believe the Holy Spirit is Jesus Father?
It seems to me that you, the Arians see it that way since you believe the Holy Spirit is the Father.
Irene. SHHH, Listen….
THE TRINTY IS FALSE…THE TRINITY IS FALSE…THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE…
You could say that until you are blue in the face and that doesnt make it so.
If it could have been proven false by scriptures, then it would have been gone centuries ago.
W.J. Yes, you are funny. But let me tell you that we are at the end times and all have been deceived. Only those that God calls out will understand the truth. Sorry W.J. that is a mans doctrine by Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian. And Constantine made the Christan Church the Universal Church in 324A.D. all are deceived by this doctrine. We came out of the Catholic Church the Universal Church and I know what that doctrine is, I taught it to all of our 4 Children unfortuantely.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Irene @ June 18 2008,14:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,10:00) Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,09:37) Quote (Irene @ June 18 2008,09:24) WJ. If the Spirit s a person then the Spirit is Jesus's Father. Is that true?
Peace and Love Irene
IreneNo, it is not true, because the Spirit didnt take on the likeness of sinful flesh, and being found in fashion as a man.
The Word that was with God and was God did that!
But the Father is who is Spirit, is the Father of Jesus. They way you see it, is that the Spirit is. We all know that it is not true. But that is not the only reason the trinity is falce. There is only one Almighty Father of us all, and who is above all. So the trinity is not truth.
Peace and Love Irene
IreneWhy would you put words in my mouth.
Why dont you show me any statement that I have made that gives you the impression I believe the Holy Spirit is Jesus Father?
It seems to me that you, the Arians see it that way since you believe the Holy Spirit is the Father.
Irene. SHHH, Listen….
THE TRINTY IS FALSE…THE TRINITY IS FALSE…THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE… THE TRINITY IS FALSE…
You could say that until you are blue in the face and that doesnt make it so.
If it could have been proven false by scriptures, then it would have been gone centuries ago.
W.J. Yes, you are funny. But let me tell you that we are at the end times and all have been deceived. Only those that God calls out will understand the truth. Sorry W.J. that is a mans doctrine by Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian. And Constantine made the Christan Church the Universal Church in 324A.D. all are deceived by this doctrine. We came out of the Catholic Church the Universal Church and I know what that doctrine is, I taught it to all of our 4 Children unfortuantely.
Peace and Love Irene
IreneGlad to see you came out of the RCC.
But did you also denounce repentance and faith In yeshua as the way of salvation?
Did you denounce that Yeshua died on the cross to save us from our sin?
Did you denounce that Yeshua rose again and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Did you denounce that Yeshua will come again with 1000s of his saints and the Holy Angels to set up his Kingdom in the earth?
Did you denounce the Father as your God?
Then why did you leave the Jesus that you knew to follow another one?
We have all these tenets of faith because the RCC preserved the scriptures and the text that we have.
The RCC also believes all the things I just mentioned. But I am sure you believe those also.
So what makes you think that they are wrong concerning the Trinitarian view.
What because you found a couple of ambiguous scritpures that you think says you are right and they are wrong?
100s and 100s of Hebrew and Greek scholars have debated this subject for centuries, and you think that you have the only truth concerning this matter?
Sorry Sis, Just because you say it is wrong does not make it so.
W. J. First of all I don't think that I have to explain my believes to you. I am the former seek and you will find and Mrs IM4Truth, you can read my post about the Covenants to see what I believe, if you want to.
You don't have to get snippy with me.
Peace and Love Mrs.Dear Irene,
Hang in there. People get different measures of the Spirit of the Father. You are ahead of others, that's all. They will catch up eventually. I am sure that you are getting frustrated with all the walls your teaching is bouncing off of. Someday, somebody will be challenged enough to question themselves in a very surrendering way and the Father will give them more of His Spirit and they will experience more truth. Most on here aren't ready apparently. The fact that scholars are still debating the trinity doctrine should tell us that there is something wrong with it. It takes a measure of the Spirit of Truth that I don't believe many have yet.God bless you for all your efforts and concern.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ June 19 2008,15:00) Dear Irene,
Hang in there. People get different measures of the Spirit of the Father. You are ahead of others, that's all. They will catch up eventually. I am sure that you are getting frustrated with all the walls your teaching is bouncing off of. Someday, somebody will be challenged enough to question themselves in a very surrendering way and the Father will give them more of His Spirit and they will experience more truth. Most on here aren't ready apparently. The fact that scholars are still debating the trinity doctrine should tell us that there is something wrong with it. It takes a measure of the Spirit of Truth that I don't believe many have yet.God bless you for all your efforts and concern.
Kathi
HI LUAnd I don’t suppose your words could not also apply to you could they?
Just how do you know what measure of the Spirit of God I or anyone else has here on this forum?
Do you measure that by your perceived understanding of the truth?
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.2 Cor 11:14-18
Pardon me for being so bold as to say that I have been serving the Lord and studying the scriptures for 34 years, have been to two Bible schools and one graduate school, received a Bachelors in Biblical studies and Masters in Divinity, Pioneered and pastored 2 Churches, preached 1000s of sermons in many churches, led many Sunday school classes, Etc, led many to Christ, and baptized them and mentored many of them in the Lord to maturity, and seen many healings, deliverances and performed marriages for some, and participated in funerals.
I have spent many hours on my knees seeking the Lord and his word.
Fasted forty days once, 21 days three times, been slapped, cursed, spit on, and lied about many times for preaching the Gospel from the pulpit to the street corners.
But until this day, have never once made these claims on this sight, and especially never implied that I had a greater measure of God's Spirit than others here.
You come on this sight claiming a little knowledge of Greek and place your understandings and interpretations of the scriptures above everyone else here including 100s of Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators, many of whom spent their lives and even died to bring us the scriptures that we have, and then you have the nerve to say that you have received a greater measure of God's Spirit than any one else here?
How arrogant and foolish. IMO.
And as far as your statement here…
Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2008,15:00) The fact that scholars are still debating the trinity doctrine should tell us that there is something wrong with it.
This also can work the other way. Maybe there is something wrong with the doctrines that come against it? Maybe the truth of the Trinity has been under attack for centuries, since it cuts to the core of who and what God is. Just read some of the forefathers writings like Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D), a disciple of John the Beloved, and you will see the concept of the Trinity has been around long before the second and third century.And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 1 Cor 8:2
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2008,08:41) Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2008,15:00) Dear Irene,
Hang in there. People get different measures of the Spirit of the Father. You are ahead of others, that's all. They will catch up eventually. I am sure that you are getting frustrated with all the walls your teaching is bouncing off of. Someday, somebody will be challenged enough to question themselves in a very surrendering way and the Father will give them more of His Spirit and they will experience more truth. Most on here aren't ready apparently. The fact that scholars are still debating the trinity doctrine should tell us that there is something wrong with it. It takes a measure of the Spirit of Truth that I don't believe many have yet.God bless you for all your efforts and concern.
Kathi
HI LUAnd I don’t suppose your words could not also apply to you could they?
Just how do you know what measure of the Spirit of God I or anyone else has here on this forum?
Do you measure that by your perceived understanding of the truth?
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.2 Cor 11:14-18
Pardon me for being so bold as to say that I have been serving the Lord and studying the scriptures for 34 years, have been to two Bible schools and one graduate school, received a Bachelors in Biblical studies and Masters in Divinity, Pioneered and pastored 2 Churches, preached 1000s of sermons in many churches, led many Sunday school classes, Etc, led many to Christ, and baptized them and mentored many of them in the Lord to maturity, and seen many healings, deliverances and performed marriages for some, and participated in funerals.
I have spent many hours on my knees seeking the Lord and his word.
Fasted forty days once, 21 days three times, been slapped, cursed, spit on, and lied about many times for preaching the Gospel from the pulpit to the street corners.
But until this day, have never once made these claims on this sight, and especially never implied that I had a greater measure of God's Spirit than others here.
You come on this sight claiming a little knowledge of Greek and place your understandings and interpretations of the scriptures above everyone else here including 100s of Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators, many of whom spent their lives and even died to bring us the scriptures that we have, and then you have the nerve to say that you have received a greater measure of God's Spirit than any one else here?
How arrogant and foolish. IMO.
And as far as your statement here…
Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2008,15:00) The fact that scholars are still debating the trinity doctrine should tell us that there is something wrong with it.
This also can work the other way. Maybe there is something wrong with the doctrines that come against it? Maybe the truth of the Trinity has been under attack for centuries, since it cuts to the core of who and what God is. Just read some of the forefathers writings like Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D), a disciple of John the Beloved, and you will see the concept of the Trinity has been around long before the second and third century.And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 1 Cor 8:2
The trinity is not taught in scripture…pre constantine Christians did not preach, teach, believe, or even know of the doctrine…neither did the apostles…All scholars agree on these facts…therefore I choose to not add to the word of GOD…the trinity to me is as “unconceived yet believed” as the “doctrine” that “the devil is not real..he is only evil within”..or “all will be saved”…
This to all trinitarians on the sight…explain Revelation 1:1
How could Jesus while in Heaven be given knowledge he did not know..if he is GOD the Father?
Hi DK
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,09:06)
The trinity is not taught in scripture…pre constantine Christians did not preach, teach, believe, or even know of the doctrine…neither did the apostles…History shows otherwise.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,09:06)
All scholars agree on these facts…therefore I choose to not add to the word of GOD…the trinity to me is as “unconceived yet believed” as the “doctrine” that “the devil is not real..he is only evil within”..or “all will be saved”…Your opinion.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,09:06)
This to all trinitarians on the sight…explain Revelation 1:1How could Jesus while in Heaven be given knowledge he did not know..if he is GOD the Father?
Does Rev 1:1 tell you “When” Yeshua received the Revelation that he gave to the churches?
Even you believe that he preexisted and yet “Grew in grace and in the knowledge of God”.
All you have to do is put this with Phil 2 and these verses…
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 16:15
Then Paul says…
In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:3
All that Yeshua emptied himself of when he left the Glory that he shared with the Father in the form of God has now returned to him. Yeshua having received again all the Power and Glory and wisdom and knowledge of God that he created the universe by, now gives John the Revelation.
Or do you think that when Yeshua was born a little baby he had all the knowledge and wisdom he had before he came in the flesh? You do believe in his preexistence dont you?
So DK, unless you can show me “when” he received the Revelation you simply make another ambiguous attempt to prove the Trinitarian view as false.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2008,09:49) Hi WJ,
So these things were IN HIM
not OF HIM but OF and FROM GOD?
He was indeed a wondrous vessel.
NHWhat is that supposed to mean?
If all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in him and come from him then they are of him.
Are not the treasures of wisdom and knowledge in God?
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