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Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2009,14:59) Quote (georg @ Oct. 28 2009,03:39) This is exactly what Mandy objects to. All the hassling that goes on, And I agree with Her. Why is that all of you have to do so? We all know by now what each of us believes. When you want to encourage some one, this is not the way to do it.
Mandy ignore, ignore, ignore. So sad to me.
Irene
You're sweet, Irene. Kathi, too!I've just finally laid it all out and taken a hard look…..
I don't think I'll ever return to religion, or fully to the bible ever again.
If the bible was God's plan to keep us all in line and to learn about Him – it failed (unless you have faith to fill in all the HUGE GAPS). I don't have that kind of faith. Not anymore.
Love,
Mandy
Hi again Mandy! Since we came out of the Catholic Church to us we did not have that basic belief, and we always by Faith believed in God. It was in the World Wide Church of God were we learned to read the Bible. So to me it does not matter if there are some holes in that Book. I go by subject, and don't read the Bible like a book. And for that it is just fine. We do know by the things we see that there is a creator, a higher being, that keeps all under control. And I guess you do agree with that. Right? And that to me,is more important then the Bible itself. I don't praise the Book, I praise God on High.
With all my Love, and may God be with you, IreneAll believers are a Royal Priesthood!
“You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ … But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:5-9).
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:52) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:19) ….but if God confirms what someone is teaching, then He is the one who is saying that the teaching is correct, and that is what ultimately matters
If God confirms? Too subjective, bro.Naturally people will look for confirmation in the smallest things to confirm their theories. I know. I've done it.
In my opinion the most important thing is to be open-minded – and try to validate beliefs through a rigid system of evidence. If there is no (conclusive) evidence, then you don't have a basis to hold an absolute belief.Whatever you, or anyone else here choose to believe – we all face the risk of being wrong.
Oddly enough I don't subscribe to a school of that that says being wrong is cause for damnation etc.
What is it about religion that stirs up such strong feelings and insistence on being correct anyway? I don't see a bunch of people here running around with different versions of truth on, say, nuclear fission? In fact, how many people here care one way or another that they understand nuclear fission and know the facts relating to it or not?
If you're not a naturally curious person (eg interested in nuclear fission) I assume people get interested in religion because it's marketed as the route to self preservation and their personal key to an infinite existence. Hence the strong personal stake in being “right” too.
Quote (Douglas @ Oct. 29 2009,07:42) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:52) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:19) ….but if God confirms what someone is teaching, then He is the one who is saying that the teaching is correct, and that is what ultimately matters
If God confirms? Too subjective, bro.Naturally people will look for confirmation in the smallest things to confirm their theories. I know. I've done it.
In my opinion the most important thing is to be open-minded – and try to validate beliefs through a rigid system of evidence. If there is no (conclusive) evidence, then you don't have a basis to hold an absolute belief.Whatever you, or anyone else here choose to believe – we all face the risk of being wrong.
Oddly enough I don't subscribe to a school of that that says being wrong is cause for damnation etc.
What is it about religion that stirs up such strong feelings and insistence on being correct anyway? I don't see a bunch of people here running around with different versions of truth on, say, nuclear fission? In fact, how many people here care one way or another that they understand nuclear fission and know the facts relating to it or not?
If you're not a naturally curious person (eg interested in nuclear fission) I assume people get interested in religion because it's marketed as the route to self preservation and their personal key to an infinite existence. Hence the strong personal stake in being “right” too.
There happen to be right or wrong. The Bible is to teach us, what is right. We have God's Holy Spirit guiding us, after we were Baptized according to Scripture.
In most area's or subject that is possible through the teaching of the Word.
Give you an example- The trinity Doctrine. Now that is hard for some, but by Scripture you can tell if right or wrong.
Ephesians 4:6 one God an Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.Who was it that came up with it? It was a man made doctrine,
Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian. It is said that the trinity doctrine is His best achievement to Christianity. He was born to
Pagan Parents in Carthage Africa in A.D. 155. He was educated in philosophy, Law an Greek and Latin.
If you have a Encyclopedia Britannica it is in there. never tried the Inter Net you should try to prove all things.Scriptures tell us though how wrong it is.
1Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know, that the LORD He is one God; there is none other beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.”
Notice that LORD is in capital letters, it is always God the Father.
Math. 15:9 ” But in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.”
I have proven th trinity to be wrong and we left the Catholic Church, because o it and otherdoctrine, like praying to Maria.
Peace and Love rene
Irene posted:
Quote Ephesians 4:6 one God an Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Paul said also that Christ is “ALL IN ALL” (Colossians 3:11).Irene:
Quote 1Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
The Father said that the Son is God (Hebrews 1:8-10).Irene:
Quote Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.”
It says that Elohim is one Jehovah. The word “elohim” is plural. This means that more than one person has the name Jehovah. Jesus is called JehovahQuote His name shall be called “Jehovah our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:6) Irene:
Quote Notice that LORD is in capital letters, it is always God the Father.
The word “LORD” in capital letters is NOT always God the Father. Jeremiah 23:5-6 says that it refers to Jesus tooQuote 5 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “ That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He [ Jesus] will be called:THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The “LORD” in verse 5 is the Father. The “LORD our righteousness” in verse 6 is Jesus. So you speak falsely when you say that the word “LORD” in all capitals refers only to the Father.Jesus claimed to be “I AM” three times in John chapter 8 (vss. 24, 28, 58).
Irene:
Quote I have proven th trinity to be wrong…. 
thinker
Hi TT,
So logic tells you that because elohim is plural that all the angels are called YHWH and your community god keeps on growing.
Logic seems to trip you up more than help you.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,00:01) Irene posted: Quote Ephesians 4:6 one God an Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Paul said also that Christ is “ALL IN ALL” (Colossians 3:11).Irene:
Quote 1Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
The Father said that the Son is God (Hebrews 1:8-10).Irene:
Quote Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.”
It says that Elohim is one Jehovah. The word “elohim” is plural. This means that more than one person has the name Jehovah. Jesus is called JehovahQuote His name shall be called “Jehovah our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:6) Irene:
Quote Notice that LORD is in capital letters, it is always God the Father.
The word “LORD” in capital letters is NOT always God the Father. Jeremiah 23:5-6 says that it refers to Jesus tooQuote 5 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “ That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He [ Jesus] will be called:THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The “LORD” in verse 5 is the Father. The “LORD our righteousness” in verse 6 is Jesus. So you speak falsely when you say that the word “LORD” in all capitals refers only to the Father.Jesus claimed to be “I AM” three times in John chapter 8 (vss. 24, 28, 58).
Irene:
Quote I have proven th trinity to be wrong…. thinker
Irene:Quote Notice that LORD is in capital letters, it is always God the Father. Quote The word “LORD” in capital letters is NOT always God the Father. Jeremiah 23:5-6 says that it refers to Jesus too Funny thing is Hebrew and Aramaic and even Syriac never used capitalization.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,19:12) Hi TT,
So logic tells you that because elohim is plural that all the angels are called YHWH and your community god keeps on growing.
Logic seems to trip you up more than help you.
“And Elohim said, “Let US create man in OUR image.” Are we created in the image of elohim/angels Nick? Or are we created in the image of Elohim YHWH?thinker
Hi TT,
No trinity there.
God is responsible for all creation.
Adding logic to truth makes for a rather shallow understanding does it not?Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 30 2009,07:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,19:12) Hi TT,
So logic tells you that because elohim is plural that all the angels are called YHWH and your community god keeps on growing.
Logic seems to trip you up more than help you.
“And Elohim said, “Let US create man in OUR image.” Are we created in the image of elohim/angels Nick? Or are we created in the image of Elohim YHWH?thinker
I guess you don't believe that Christ existed before He became a man, and that is why He was there when God and Jesus through the Fathers power created the world.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev.3:14
And by Jesus own words He said in
John 17:5 And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which we had before the world was. He did not always existed like you and others belief. These Scriptures show that. I just wish with all of my heart that you and others would learn that there is no trinity doctrine, It is a man made doctrine and false.
IreneIrene said:
Quote I guess you don't believe that Christ existed before He became a man…. 
Irene:
Quote I just wish with all of my heart that you and others would learn that there is no trinity doctrine, It is a man made doctrine and false.
Irene
You did not answer any of my points. You said that the word “LORD” in all capitals refers only to the Father. I gave you Jeremiah 23:5-6 which shows that the name “LORD” refers to the Father and Jesus.Quote “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “ That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The first reference to “LORD” (blue) is the Father. The second (red) is Jesus.Here is another example,
Quote 20 “Behold, I send a Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.
The LORD said that His name is in the Messenger. This means that the Messenger is YHWH too. It says also that He can choose not to pardon transgression if He is provoked. This implies that the Messenger is God. This Messenger must be Jesus.All this time you have just assumed that the word LORD in all capitals refers only to the Father. You should re-think it all. I believe you had it right the first time.
thinker
Let's see…..I have a dollar…..which theory to buy? Which one, which one??
This thread has gone just as I thought it would. Sigh, so predictable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not poking fun at anyone or any theory – I'm just say'in.
I consider a few of you pretty mature in your faith. I have listened to you and read your ideas….I've considered them thoroughly. At one point I even made a graph with a few of your names listed and various belief systems with the SAME scriptures proving all the various beliefs. It was mind-boggling!
The bible is the source of all the confusion. Bottom-line. It cannot be read as a straight-forward teaching. Therefore, it is open to many interpretations. Noone knows who is right. Like Marty, he only teaches what he thinks he “hears” from God as being the “truth”. We all do this, for what other choice do we have? Everyone who disagrees is wrong. What other choice to you have?
Hmmmmm.
I think I'm finally ready to leave this behind me. God has abandoned us. If he has left his “spirit” to guide us….it is a weak connection. It does not guide – it confuses and causes threads like this one!!
I'm sorry to be a discouragement to anyone who reads this. I certainly would rather have more optimistic news. The only counter to my complaint is faith. But the bible tells us that even our faith is a gift from God…so….that doesn't really help, does it? Um, but, faith is the only thing that I can see that you can hang onto if you wish. Well, that and fear.
God bless you guys. I love you all like family. Heavennet has been a comfort to me, and your caring for me has been a blessing. But, I no longer believe the things that you believe (the many things that you all believe). And I don't want to keep being a negative-nilly. Always pointing out the errors and what if's…… That doesn't help. So, press on and God help us all.
Love you much,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 30 2009,09:16) Let's see…..I have a dollar…..which theory to buy? Which one, which one?? This thread has gone just as I thought it would. Sigh, so predictable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not poking fun at anyone or any theory – I'm just say'in.
I consider a few of you pretty mature in your faith. I have listened to you and read your ideas….I've considered them thoroughly. At one point I even made a graph with a few of your names listed and various belief systems with the SAME scriptures proving all the various beliefs. It was mind-boggling!
The bible is the source of all the confusion. Bottom-line. It cannot be read as a straight-forward teaching. Therefore, it is open to many interpretations. Noone knows who is right. Like Marty, he only teaches what he thinks he “hears” from God as being the “truth”. We all do this, for what other choice do we have? Everyone who disagrees is wrong. What other choice to you have?
Hmmmmm.
I think I'm finally ready to leave this behind me. God has abandoned us. If he has left his “spirit” to guide us….it is a weak connection. It does not guide – it confuses and causes threads like this one!!
I'm sorry to be a discouragement to anyone who reads this. I certainly would rather have more optimistic news. The only counter to my complaint is faith. But the bible tells us that even our faith is a gift from God…so….that doesn't really help, does it? Um, but, faith is the only thing that I can see that you can hang onto if you wish. Well, that and fear.
God bless you guys. I love you all like family. Heavennet has been a comfort to me, and your caring for me has been a blessing. But, I no longer believe the things that you believe (the many things that you all believe). And I don't want to keep being a negative-nilly. Always pointing out the errors and what if's…… That doesn't help. So, press on and God help us all.
Love you much,
Mandy
Too often we make the mistake of thinking it matters if we are right or not. It does not matter.What does matter is the sort of person you are and what you do. That matters.
I'd say it a hundred times if it made any difference, but hey, it's your dollar.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 30 2009,09:16) Let's see…..I have a dollar…..which theory to buy? Which one, which one?? This thread has gone just as I thought it would. Sigh, so predictable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not poking fun at anyone or any theory – I'm just say'in.
I consider a few of you pretty mature in your faith. I have listened to you and read your ideas….I've considered them thoroughly. At one point I even made a graph with a few of your names listed and various belief systems with the SAME scriptures proving all the various beliefs. It was mind-boggling!
The bible is the source of all the confusion. Bottom-line. It cannot be read as a straight-forward teaching. Therefore, it is open to many interpretations. Noone knows who is right. Like Marty, he only teaches what he thinks he “hears” from God as being the “truth”. We all do this, for what other choice do we have? Everyone who disagrees is wrong. What other choice to you have?
Hmmmmm.
I think I'm finally ready to leave this behind me. God has abandoned us. If he has left his “spirit” to guide us….it is a weak connection. It does not guide – it confuses and causes threads like this one!!
I'm sorry to be a discouragement to anyone who reads this. I certainly would rather have more optimistic news. The only counter to my complaint is faith. But the bible tells us that even our faith is a gift from God…so….that doesn't really help, does it? Um, but, faith is the only thing that I can see that you can hang onto if you wish. Well, that and fear.
God bless you guys. I love you all like family. Heavennet has been a comfort to me, and your caring for me has been a blessing. But, I no longer believe the things that you believe (the many things that you all believe). And I don't want to keep being a negative-nilly. Always pointing out the errors and what if's…… That doesn't help. So, press on and God help us all.
Love you much,
Mandy
Mandy! Let's say something positive to encourage each other. There really is no sense in any other confusion. If you think that the Bible confuses you,so be it. It will not change anything, will it. The Bible was written by Humans and so we should expect some error's IMO. That also was predicted that there would be very little faith left in the end times. It is by faith that we are saved.
I really don't know what else to tell you, except keep your chin up. It really is not all that bad.
Before Heaven Net I really did not read the Bible all that much. Coming out of the Catholic Church left me with bad habits. It was the disagreements here, that made me dig deeper into the Bible to prove what I was believing. And that I was able to do. Jesus now is real to me. I look outside and see God. I really don't need the Bible to tell me that. I have always enjoyed you and I would be missing you if you would leave. So please don't!!!!!Love you Irene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2009,14:00) Hi WJ,
There is no trinity in the Word is there?
Who added it to orthodoxy?
Catholicism?
No it was a man called Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian. It was the Roman Universal Church at first that became the Roman Catholic Church later. The true Christians at the time were tortured and died by the Millions. It was Constantine in A.D. 313 that granted all Christians full freedom to practice their religion.In A.D. 321 Constantine issued an edit forbidding work on Sundays and making it the official day of worship.
In A.D. 324 Constantine established Christianity as the official
religion of His empire. It will become the Roman Universal Church. It is all in Ancient History, that my Husband Georg studied.
Peace and Love IreneHi Mandy:
Maybe you did not wait on God to fulfill some of the prophecies that you say did not come to pass. I have waited 29 years for what He had shown me shortly after I was born again. And as I have said, He has spoken to me within the past year confirming that everything that He promised me will come to pass. If God does not work things out in our timing, does that mean that He did not speak?
Faith is trusting God regardless of what current circumstances dictate.
God is true to His Word. If He has spoken something He will surely bring it to pass. Having said this, I know that there are false prophets. If something is said to you that doesn't line up with His Word, He did not say it.
God does not want anyone to serve Him if they choose not to serve Him. The simplicity of the gospel is to Love Him by obeying His commandments, and to love others as He has loved us.
I am hoping to see you in the kingdom of God enjoying all the good things that God has for those who love Him.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 30 2009,13:18) God is true to His Word. If He has spoken something He will surely bring it to pass. Having said this, I know that there are false prophets. If something is said to you that doesn't line up with His Word, He did not say it.
Ever consider the idea that God might sometimes be fallible too?Or do you have a better way to describe what happens if things don't strictly run “to plan”?
When I review my file later, I won't be saying “oh that didn't happen it can't be marked as from God”, I'll be saying “that was wrong actually” (and exactly what could predict anything so accurately it could model people in every little detail?). Now some of the things are so improbable timescale really doesn't matter for validating them – other things are probable enough they'd either have to happen very quickly (after prediction) or be extremely significant when they did occur.
Automatically rejecting anything because it doesn't align with pre-existing beliefs or doesn't pan out that way only runs the risk to reinforce a myth. Granted if you have a direct communication route you can at least consistency check against that data source, whereas most of us are stuck with attempting to reconcile things said by people (and presuming on an external entity, I have to say the human clutter all but drowns it out) – where you immediately have one layer of confusion, vocabulary and intellectual limitations (I don't think anything can tell people things they aren't able to understand).
Ever consider the idea that God might sometimes be fallible too?
Or do you have a better way to describe what happens if things don't strictly run “to plan”?
That is a strong statement, which IMO should not be said. Limiting God is not a good idea. God's Pan will come true no matter what. And if it is not written in the Bible, and it might not, then it still going to happen. But I don't think that God is fallible. He is all knowing, And I am glad that He Is. I look at the blue sky and marvel at the beauty He has given us. I guess being older makes you appreciate things much more,then if you are young. And as far as trusting people I don't. Learning the hard way, has shown me not to. The Bible has errors, but in most subjects it is still workable. Faith on the other hand is another thing. Learning to have faith no matter what is not always easy, and I can understand Mandy a little. We had a head start since we came out of the Catholic Church, and we did not read the Bible at all. My Husband was 47 and I was 46 when we started to study the Bible.
God has been good to us. We always got what we asked for. We are married 48 years. Our understanding of His word is something I would have never thought back then, that it would happen.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Douglas @ Oct. 30 2009,02:00) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 30 2009,13:18) God is true to His Word. If He has spoken something He will surely bring it to pass. Having said this, I know that there are false prophets. If something is said to you that doesn't line up with His Word, He did not say it.
Ever consider the idea that God might sometimes be fallible too?Or do you have a better way to describe what happens if things don't strictly run “to plan”?
When I review my file later, I won't be saying “oh that didn't happen it can't be marked as from God”, I'll be saying “that was wrong actually” (and exactly what could predict anything so accurately it could model people in every little detail?). Now some of the things are so improbable timescale really doesn't matter for validating them – other things are probable enough they'd either have to happen very quickly (after prediction) or be extremely significant when they did occur.
Automatically rejecting anything because it doesn't align with pre-existing beliefs or doesn't pan out that way only runs the risk to reinforce a myth. Granted if you have a direct communication route you can at least consistency check against that data source, whereas most of us are stuck with attempting to reconcile things said by people (and presuming on an external entity, I have to say the human clutter all but drowns it out) – where you immediately have one layer of confusion, vocabulary and intellectual limitations (I don't think anything can tell people things they aren't able to understand).
Ever consider the idea that God might sometimes be fallible too?Nope, can't even consider it. If God knows the beginning from the end, then he cannot be fallable. It would be impossible.
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