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LU: YHVH as a Unity:
For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords…
together with this:
[The Lamb] is Lord of lords and King of kings…
Mike: That’s it? Is that REALLY the only verse on which your entire “Jesus is Yahweh Jr” doctrine is based? Wow, Kathi. Just wow.
Kathi, please answer. Is that REALLY the only OT verse on which your doctrine is based?
Mike: So then every single reference to the Most High in the entire Bible using either “God” or “Yahweh” could be referring to the Father alone, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the Son? And then that would be why they always refer to “God” and “Yahweh” as a He?
LU: Yes, it “could be” referring to the Father…
Mike: Then what else possibly needs to be said, Kathi? Your doctrine was founded upon one single OT verse that you purposely misinterpret, and which you admit could be referring only to the Father after all.
Is my last statement above correct, Kathi?
Hi Danny,
You said: If Jesus is Yahweh then Jesus is His own Father.
OR
Jesus was given His Father’s name.
John 17:11…Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. 12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me.
Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and He will reign wisely as King and will administer justice and righteousness in the land. 6In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is His name by which He will be called: The Yahweh Our Righteousness.
Yahweh the Son is seen in the OT. Yahweh the Father is not seen. The Son always does the will of His Father. They act as one God while each being in the form of God themselves.
No, Aaron is not Yahweh.
Thanks for your question Danny.
Blessings, LU
Mike,
Regarding Israel as a “him,” if I remember right, Jerusalem is being referred to within Israel (him/he) and Jerusalem is a “her/she.”
Mike,
You said:
Is my last statement above correct, Kathi?
NO. Start from the first page of the topic. Count the verses.
Mike,
You asked:
If the Father ALONE can be “God” for John, then there’s no reason that the Father ALONE can’t ALWAYS be “God” for everyone.
John 1:18:
How many persons are called “God” here, Mike:
No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known.
Is John referring to two persons as God, one being in the bosom of the other? If so, then your question does not reflect that. John is not referring to the Father alone as God.
LU: John is not referring to the Father alone as God.
John 1:18… No one has ever seen God…
Is John referring to the Father ALONE as “God” in those words above? Your statement above has been debunked.
But let’s use a different verse to make sure…
John 3:16… For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Is John referring to the Father ALONE as “God”? Yep.
Let’s try just one more verse to make triple sure…
John 20:17… Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Is Jesus referring to the Father ALONE as, not only HIS God, but also OUR God? Yep.
So how about you and I just end your unscriptural doctrine once and for all, okay?
Our Lord Jesus told us in no uncertain terms that the Father ALONE is not only HIS God, but also OUR God.
So who is OUR God… according to Jesus himself, Kathi?
Your honest answer to this question ends the entire thing. Thanks in advance.
Even though Kathi’s unscriptural and nonsensical doctrine has been demolished by Jesus himself, I still want to get some closure on this subject that is important to me…
LU: Jesus confirmed that He is properly called “God.” If the created beings were called god, how much more the uncreated and only begotten Son of God would be called “God,” even “YHVH God.”
Mike: We’re getting there. First, who exactly were these “created beings” that were called gods (not “god”) by Yahweh in Psalm 82? (It’s important to know who/what they were to see if your explanation works. Thanks.)
Kathi, are the “created beings” who are called gods in Psalm 82 human sons of God or spirit sons of God?
Hi Danny,
Did you respond to my post here:
Hi Danny,
You said: If Jesus is Yahweh then Jesus is His own Father.
ORJesus was given His Father’s name.
John 17:11…Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. 12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me.
Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and He will reign wisely as King and will administer justice and righteousness in the land. 6In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is His name by which He will be called: The Yahweh Our Righteousness.
Yahweh the Son is seen in the OT. Yahweh the Father is not seen. The Son always does the will of His Father. They act as one God while each being in the form of God themselves.
No, Aaron is not Yahweh.
Thanks for your question Danny.
Blessings, LU
If so, could you point me to it please?
Mike,
You asked:
KATHI, ARE THE “CREATED BEINGS” WHO ARE CALLED GODS IN PSALM 82 HUMAN SONS OF GOD OR SPIRIT SONS OF GOD?
I don’t think they are humans. I think they are not of this earthly realm but from another realm and possibly given charge over different gentile nations when the language was confused at Babel.
Mike,
Regarding this:
LU: John is not referring to the Father alone as God.
John 1:18… No one has ever seen God…Is John referring to the Father ALONE as “God” in those words above? Your statement above has been debunked.
He was referring to the Father that was not alone. He had the only begotten God in His bosom.
Mike,
Regarding this:
John 3:16… For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Is John referring to the Father ALONE as “God”?
Do you think that the only begotten Son took a break from being the only begotten God in that verse? Is He not essentially the only begotten God in His every act?
John 3:16… For God so loved the world that he gave the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that whoever believes in the only begotten God shall not perish but have eternal life.
In that verse two persons, both who were in the form of god, are mentioned. One gave the other. Believing in one of the two results in eternal life according just to that verse. Can you tell me which one is singled out to believe in within that verse?
If you add to every mention of Jesus with “the only begotten God, Yahweh our Righteousness, who is in the bosom of the Father” then you will understand the Bible better and why there are two who are in unity as Yahweh.
Mike,
Regarding my last post here, see this as an example:
1 Samuel 3:21
21And the LORD continued to appear at Shiloh, because there He revealed Himself to Samuel by His word (the Only Begotten God, Yahweh our Righteousness, who is in the bosom of His Father).
Mike: KATHI, ARE THE “CREATED BEINGS” WHO ARE CALLED GODS IN PSALM 82 HUMAN SONS OF GOD OR SPIRIT SONS OF GOD?
LU: I don’t think they are humans. I think they are not of this earthly realm but from another realm and possibly given charge over different gentile nations when the language was confused at Babel.
Thank you. And if not humans, but “sons of the Most High” from another realm, then they are clearly spirit sons of God, right? And it’s clear that Yahweh called these spirit sons of His “gods”, right?
And as a spirit son of God, wouldn’t Jesus also be a god? Yes.
John 10:35-36… If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—then what about the one whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?
Do you see it in the last 8 words? What was Jesus stating that upset the Jews? Not ever that he was “God”, but that he was a spirit son of God who was sent down from heaven. And to the Jews (and according to the entirety of scripture), a heavenly son of God was a god (not “God”).
Jesus simply reminded them that Yahweh had called these other spirit sons “gods” in scripture, and asked them why he, the spirit son that the Father specifically sanctified and sent down to earth, wouldn’t also rightly be a god.
In short, the Jews accused him of blasphemy for claiming to be a heavenly son of God, ie: a god. Jesus said it isn’t blasphemy to tell the truth about who he was – a heavenly son of God who was anointed by God and sent to earth for a very special purpose.
Here’s the correct meaning of John 10:33-36…
“We are stoning you for blasphemy, because you, a man, claim to be a god.”
Jesus replied, “If scripture calls God’s heavenly sons ‘gods’, then as the heavenly son that God set apart as His very own, I would be at least as much of a god as the gods in Ps 82 are, and therefore it isn’t blasphemy to claim what I truly am.”
Kathi, consider the charge the Jews brought against him…
Luke 22… 66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and the teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67“If you are the Messiah,” they said, “tell us.”
Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”
70They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?”
He replied, “You say that I am.”
71Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.”
John 19… 6As soon as the chief priests and officers saw Him, they shouted, “Crucify Him! Crucify Him!”
“You take Him and crucify Him,” Pilate replied, “for I find no basis for a charge against Him.”
7“We have a law,” answered the Jews, “and according to that law He must die, because He declared Himself to be the Son of God.”
See? Not charged for claiming to be God, but for claiming to be a heavenly son OF God, ie: A god.
Mike: John 1:18… No one has ever seen God…
Is John referring to the Father ALONE as “God” in those words above?
LU: He was referring to the Father…
Thank you. So your previous claim is debunked, and my statement remains undeniable…
If the Father ALONE can be “God” for John, then there’s no reason that the Father ALONE can’t ALWAYS be “God” for everyone.
Kathi…
John 20:17… Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
In 20:17 above, is Jesus referring to the Father alone as, not only HIS God, but also OUR God? Yes or No?
In 20:17 above, who did Jesus explicitly say was our God? (Please answer directly and honestly. Thanks.)
Mike,
You said:
See? Not charged for claiming to be God, but for claiming to be a heavenly son OF God, ie: A god.
Mike, Jesus is claiming to be the elohim of Psalms 82:8.
The Jews knew the Messiah was the Son of God that they were supposed to “Kiss” and “take refuge in” from Psalms 2. However, they were thinking that Jesus, who was claiming to be the Messiah, the One who is called “elohim” in Psalms 82:8, was lying about being the Messiah.
So instead of kissing the Son as they were supposed to do to the Messiah, they were about to stone Him. I suppose they didn’t like Jesus telling them this from John 10 ” 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
Read Psalms 82 and Psalms 2, the Anointed ONE to whom YHVH said “You are my Son” in Psalms 2 is the Elohim of Psalms 82:8.
A Psalm of Asaph.
1God (elohim) presides in the divine assembly;
He renders judgment among the gods (elohim):
2“How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
uphold the rights of the afflicted and oppressed.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
save them from the hand of the wicked.
5They do not know or understand;
they wander in the darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I have said, ‘You are gods (elohim);
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7But like mortals you will die,
and like rulers you will fall.”
8Arise, O God (elohim/the Son of God of whom is to be “kissed”), judge the earth,
for all the nations are Your inheritance.
Psalms 2
The Reign of the LORD’S Anointed.
1Why are the nations restless
And the peoples plotting in vain?
2The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers conspire together
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3“Let’s tear their shackles apart
And throw their ropes away from us!”
4He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
7“I will announce the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8‘Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth as Your possession.
9‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware
10Now then, you kings, use insight;
Let yourselves be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with reverence
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, that He not be angry and you perish on the way,
For His wrath may be kindled quickly.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
I have interjected the Hebrew word “elohim” where it is in the Hebrew and the phrase “the Son of God whom is to be “kissed” where I believe the passage is speaking of the elohim in Psalms 82:8 that was set apart and anointed to be the only Son of God who inherits the nations and is the One Son who is to be kissed and taken refuge in.
Mike, if you read Psalms 82 and see that there are sons of God called ‘elohim’ who are being reprimanded in v. 2-7, and then realize that the ‘elohim’ referred to in v.8 is the Elohim that has inherited all the nations, not one of the sons being reprimanded, the Son of God from Psalms 2 that is to be ‘kissed,’ you will get a better grasp on the passage.
Jesus is saying that if God called them elohim in v. 2-7, who screwed up, how much more would the One Son that was anointed to inherit all the nations of the earth be called ‘elohim.’ Jesus was making Himself out to be the anointed, the Christ who is with YHVH, His Father (who gave the Son His name ‘YHVH’, btw.) and is the Son of God (from Psalms 2) who is to be ‘kissed’ not stoned as the Jews were threatening in John 10.
I hope that is easily understood.
Blessings, LU
Mike,
You said:
IF THE FATHER ALONE CAN BE “GOD” FOR JOHN, THEN THERE’S NO REASON THAT THE FATHER ALONE CAN’T ALWAYS BE “GOD” FOR EVERYONE.
But John speaks of two who are theos. It is only the Father theos that is unseen. The other theos mentioned is seen and is in the bosom of the Father.
For John, both the unseen Father and the Son who explains the Father are referred to as theos. It is not the Father alone that is referred to as ‘theos’ in John 1:18.
LU……Jesus said, (not me) ….“Father this is eternal life, that they may come to know you, the “ONLY” true God, ……. and Jesus christ who you have sent.
LU, the question is , do you “truly believe Jesus and what he said?
Peace and love to you and yours LU………..gene
LU: Mike, Jesus is claiming to be the elohim of Psalms 82:8.
No he’s not, based on his own reply to the Jews. When he references Psalm 82, he mentions only that other spirit sons of God were also called gods. He doesn’t mention the “O God” in verse 8 – so whether or not that particular “O God” is Yahweh or His holy servant Jesus is irrelevant.
1. Ps 82 makes it very clear that heavenly sons of the Most High God are gods too.
2. Jesus had indeed been repeatedly claiming to be a heavenly son of God throughout his ministry on earth.
3. The Jews, knowing that claiming to be a heavenly son of God was the equivalent of claiming to be A god, accused Jesus of doing exactly that. The Jews could have put it either way… “You are just a man but claim to be a god” or “You are just a man but claim to be a heavenly son of God” – because both charges mean EXACTLY the same thing.
4. Jesus didn’t deny the accusation, but reaffirmed using scripture that heavenly sons of God ARE gods, and it isn’t blasphemy to claim that you are a heavenly son of God (a god) if you truly are.
5. The Jews eventually had Jesus executed for that exact charge – claiming to be a heavenly son of God (a god). In their official charge against him, they also had the same options… “He is guilty of claiming to be a god” or “He is guilty of claiming to be a heavenly son of God” – since again, both of them me EXACTLY the same thing.
Kathi, this issue was important to me for a couple of reasons…
1. I wanted you to acknowledge that the gods in Ps 82 are indeed heavenly sons of God.
A. That proves beyond any shadow of doubt that there are MANY gods in the Bible.
B. Yahweh, Jesus, Satan, Michael, Gabriel, Dagon, Baal, Chemosh, and all the rest truly ARE all gods.
C. Only ONE of all of the gods in the Bible is the Most High God OF all of the other gods.
D. The one and only Most High God of all the other gods is the ONLY god who doesn’t have a God of his own.
E. Jesus most certainly DOES have a God of his own, and absolutely must therefore be a DIFFERENT and LESSER god than the Most High God of gods that he himself calls both HIS and OUR God.
2. I was hoping that your understanding of A through E above would then lead you to the undeniable fact that no Jew (whether antagonist, apostle or disciple of Jesus) ever once thought that Jesus had ever once claimed to be the Most High God, nor a “member of the Most High Yahweh Unity”.
A. Had he claimed such a thing, his own apostles would have either walked away from him or strung him up themselves.
B. He only ever claimed to be a son, messenger, servant, prophet and sacrificial lamb OF the one and only Most High God.
C. He clearly referenced and prayed to his and their (our) God all throughout his ministries.
D. He clearly and repeatedly explained to everyone that while he was a very special envoy of God, he was not as good or as great as his own God who sent him into the world and gave him everything he has.
E. He specifically and EXPLICITLY told everyone that his God was also their (our) God – and that He was the Creator.
F. The apostles and disciples in their later writings clearly distinguished God’s servant Jesus from their God and Creator – often and in many different ways – proving that none of them ever even had the thought enter their mind that Jesus could have been the Most High God that man can’t even see.
G. There is absolutely NOTHING in the entirety of scripture, OT or NT, that could LOGICALLY be construed as teaching something called a “Yahweh Unity”, and ZERO indication that ANYONE who wrote the Bible ever thought such a thing.
Kathi, it’s time for you to open your eyes. Your Lord Jesus (the one you think is your God and Creator) literally, specifically, directly and explicitly told us all that HIS God was also OUR God.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself, “Who is my God?” Then say to yourself, “Well, what did my Lord tell me?” Then read John 20:17 over and over again until you are able to look into that mirror again and say point blank to yourself, “My Lord Jesus clearly told me that my God is his Father and his God, and therefore the Father alone, Jesus’ own Father and God, is my God and that’s all there is to it!”
Godspeed.
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