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Mike: If you want to defend Berean against my scripturally-backed arguments, then you should probably start by giving him a valid (ie: explicitly supported by scripture) explanation to why Peter and John, in their prayer in Acts 4, identify Jesus as the servant of the God who created the heaven, earth, sea, and all that is in them – not the Creator of those things… and as the anointed one of the Yahweh against whom the nations rage – and not Yahweh Himself.
LU: Jesus is not the Yahweh unity that created the heaven and the earth, etc. but is a member of that unity and participated in creation.
You left out the underlined part of my request when you quoted it. And you have failed to offer any “explicitly supported by scripture” explanation for why Peter and John clearly and unmistakably distinguish Jesus as the servant of the God who created all things (not that God – or even a member of that God), and as the anointed one of Yahweh (not Yahweh – or even a member of Yahweh).
Come, let’s reason together…
If Jesus is a member of the “God” Peter and John said created all things, then as a servant OF the God who created all things, Jesus would be a servant of… Jesus!
And if Jesus is a member of the “Yahweh” against whom the nations raged, then as the anointed one OF that Yahweh, Jesus would be an anointed one of… Jesus!
Kathi, when we read that the nations rage against Yahweh AND His anointed one – and Peter and John identify Jesus as the anointed one OF Yahweh – do you seriously believe that Peter and John were trying to teach us that, “Oh, and by the way, Jesus is also a member of the Yahweh he is the anointed one of.” ?
When we read that Peter and John prayed to the God who created all things – and identified Jesus as the servant OF that God – do you seriously believe that Peter and John were trying to teach us that, “Oh, and by the way, Jesus is also a member of the God he is a servant of.” ?
So my questions to you are:
1. Is there any explicit scriptural indication that Peter and John were aware of this “Yahweh Unity”?
2. Is there any explicit scriptural indication that Peter and John ever taught us about this “Yahweh Unity”?
If yes, then please identify the particular words from Peter and/or John where they teach us these things. Thanks.
Mike: What particular word in Gen 1:1 indicates that there is a person (or persons) mentioned in that verse?
LU: elohim
Thank you. So then you agree that the Hebrew word “elohim” (god or gods) refers to a PERSON or PERSONS, in Gen 1:1, right?
Genesis 1:2… Now the earth was empty and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Kathi, is a person mentioned in the second verse of the Bible? And if so, which particular word in Gen 1:2 indicates as much?
We can keep doing this, verse by verse, for the entire Bible. Or are you ready to concede that the word “god” always refers to a person (or a physical representation thereof) who is thought to have powers over nature and the affairs of man?
Kathi said… “It is applied to Jesus as the ultimate Davidic son turned king but it is applied to others in the line of the Davidic kings also.”
Kathi also asked… “Is Jesus the only begotten son of God or one of many begotten sons of God?
You tell me. You’re the one saying that the words, “You are my son. Today I have begotten you” are applied to many Davidic kings, right? And if that is the case, Jesus couldn’t possibly be the only-begotten son of God, right?
It seems you are arguing against yourself.
You also claim that the “Yahweh Unity” consists of two persons who comprise only ONE god. But then you turn around and point out that Jesus is “the only-begotten god”, right?
John 1:18… No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten god, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him.
I’m no rocket scientist, but if there is a god that no one has ever seen, and an only-begotten god “which we have seen with our own eyes and touched with our own hands” (1 John 1:1), then they are TWO different gods – “Yahweh Unity” or not.
Again, it seems as if your argument is with yourself.
Please elaborate on these two points. Thanks.
Mike,
You said:
John 1:18… No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten god, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him.
I’m no rocket scientist, but if there is a god that no one has ever seen, and an only-begotten god “which we have seen with our own eyes and touched with our own hands” (1 John 1:1), then they are TWO different gods – “Yahweh Unity” or not.
Or they are Father and Son, two different persons with the same nature acting as one God, manifested in many ways with one of them who became flesh.
Btw, I believe that I was unclear, the words “today I have begotten you” from Psalms 2 are only applied to Jesus, not Solomon, and are in regards to the promise made to David regarding one of David’s offspring would sit on an eternal throne as king. This was said on the day of his resurrection from the dead. Clearly Jesus as THE Son of God, existed before that day. The words “I will be a father to him and he will be a son to me” are the words in Heb 1 that apply to Solomon and Jesus who both become the offspring of David to sit on his throne and build a house for the name of the LORD.
1 Chronicles 17:13
I will be his Father, and he will be My son. And I will never remove My loving devotion from him as I removed it from your predecessor.It seems to me that Hebrews 1 repeats these words in order to show that Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise made to David and not any of the angels.
Please read:
God’s Covenant with David
(1 Chronicles 17:1–15)1After the king had settled into his palace and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies around him, 2he said to Nathan the prophet, “Here I am, living in a house of cedar, while the ark of God remains in a tent.”
3And Nathan replied to the king, “Go and do all that is in your heart, for the LORD is with you.”
4But that night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying, 5“Go and tell My servant David that this is what the LORD says: Are you the one to build for Me a house to dwell in? 6For I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought the Israelites up out of Egypt until this day, but I have moved about with a tent as My dwelling. 7In all My journeys with all the Israelites, have I ever asked any of the leaders I appointed to shepherd My people Israel, ‘Why haven’t you built Me a house of cedar?’
8Now then, you are to tell My servant David that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: I took you from the pasture, from following the flock, to be the ruler over My people Israel. 9I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make for you a name like the greatest in the land.
10And I will provide a place for My people Israel and will plant them so that they may dwell in a place of their own and be disturbed no more. No longer will the sons of wickedness oppress them as they did at the beginning 11and have done since the day I appointed judges over My people Israel. I will give you rest from all your enemies.
The LORD declares to you that He Himself will establish a house for you. 12And when your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13He will build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14I will be his Father, and he will be My son. When he does wrong, I will discipline him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
15But My loving devotion will never be removed from him as I removed it from Saul, whom I moved out of your way. 16Your house and kingdom will endure forever before Me, and your throne will be established forever.”
17So Nathan relayed to David all the words of this entire vision.
David’s Prayer of Thanksgiving
(1 Chronicles 17:16–27)18Then King David went in, sat before the LORD, and said, “Who am I, O Lord GOD, and what is my house, that You have brought me this far? 19And as if this was a small thing in Your eyes, O Lord GOD, You have also spoken about the future of the house of Your servant. Is this Your custom with man, O Lord GOD? 20What more can David say to You? For You know Your servant, O Lord GOD. 21For the sake of Your word and according to Your own heart, You have accomplished this great thing and revealed it to Your servant.
22How great You are, O Lord GOD! For there is none like You, and there is no God but You, according to everything we have heard with our own ears. 23And who is like Your people Israel—the one nation on earth whom God went out to redeem as a people for Himself and to make a name for Himself? You performed great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before Your people, whom You redeemed for Yourself from Egypt. 24For You have established Your people Israel as Your very own forever, and You, O LORD, have become their God.
25And now, O LORD God, confirm forever the word You have spoken concerning Your servant and his house. Do as You have promised, 26so that Your name will be magnified forever when it is said, ‘The LORD of Hosts is God over Israel.’ And the house of Your servant David will be established before You. 27For You, O LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, have revealed this to Your servant when You said, ‘I will build a house for you.’ Therefore Your servant has found the courage to offer this prayer to You.
28And now, O Lord GOD, You are God! Your words are true, and You have promised this goodness to Your servant. 29Now therefore, may it please You to bless the house of Your servant, that it may continue forever before You. For You, O Lord GOD, have spoken, and with Your blessing the house of Your servant will be blessed forever.”
Please answer: “Is Jesus the only begotten son of God or one of many begotten sons of God?
Blessings, LU
Hi LU,
As I said I can understand your position but I also can understand the Unitarians.
I have to search some more.
I agree, however, that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.
That’s all I can say right now.God bless
Mike: …if there is a god that no one has ever seen, and an only-begotten god “which we have seen with our own eyes and touched with our own hands” (1 John 1:1), then they are TWO different gods – “Yahweh Unity” or not.
LU: Or they are Father and Son, two different persons with the same nature acting as one God, manifested in many ways with one of them who became flesh.
Not even a chance. Is the Father the only begotten god? Nope. Is Jesus the God whom no one has ever seen? Nope. You are pretending that John 1:18 talks about [a member of] God who is unbegotten, and whom no one has ever seen, and [a member of] God who was begotten and whom was seen by many. But those red words are not in the text. John 1:18 actually talks about two different gods – one who has never been seen by man, and one who has.
John also makes that clear in 1:1, where he tells us that a god was WITH the God in the beginning. 1:1 and 1:18 support and reaffirm each other. But any way you slice it, the Father and Son – according to what the scriptures actually teach (and not what you WANT them to teach) – are two different gods… one of them unbegotten and invisible, and the other one begotten and visible.
LU: Btw, I believe that I was unclear, the words “today I have begotten you” from Psalms 2 are only applied to Jesus, not Solomon, and are in regards to the promise made to David regarding one of David’s offspring would sit on an eternal throne as king. This was said on the day of his resurrection from the dead.
Are you claiming that the term “only begotten son of God” is metaphorical, not literal? Are you saying that it refers to God metaphorically begetting someone by placing them on a throne? If so, then it would also apply to Solomon and the kings who succeeded him.
LU: Clearly Jesus as THE Son of God, existed before that day.
Yes. Jesus, as one of MANY sons of God, existed before he dwelt on earth, and before his and our God resurrected him from the grave.
LU: Please answer: “Is Jesus the only begotten son of God or one of many begotten sons of God?
Again… you tell me. If “begotten” is simply a metaphorical way of saying that God has set a new king on an old throne, then it would most certainly also apply to Solomon, and all the kings who came after him. So if that is the case, Jesus would be one of many begotten sons of God.
And in that case, the term “only begotten” would mean something akin to what it means when Isaac is called Abraham’s “only begotten” – even though Abraham begot other sons.
I can’t very well answer your question until you give me more info about the things I brought up above.
Hi Mike,
I have been not feeling well (thanks for asking) but will try to address a question here and there.
Starting with this:
You asked:
If “begotten” is simply a metaphorical way of saying that God has set a new king on an old throne, then it would most certainly also apply to Solomon, and all the kings who came after him. So if that is the case, Jesus would be one of many begotten sons of God.
I believe that the Psalm 2 “Today I have begotten you” is said when the Messiah’s body was begotten from the grave, not having undergone decay, and installed as the promised king to sit on the eternal throne of the Davidic covenant. Solomon underwent decay. Those words did not apply to him.
Mike,
You said:
But any way you slice it, the Father and Son – according to what the scriptures actually teach (and not what you WANT them to teach) – are two different gods… one of them unbegotten and invisible, and the other one begotten and visible.
If they are two different gods then they would be gods to different people groups but they are not. They are together God of Israel and then to all nations.
Mike,
You said:
We can keep doing this, verse by verse, for the entire Bible. Or are you ready to concede that the word “god” always refers to a person (or a physical representation thereof) who is thought to have powers over nature and the affairs of man?
I already showed you “whose god is their belly” so that would dispel your “always refers to a person (or a physical representation thereof)” idea.
Mike,
You said:
And if Jesus is a member of the “Yahweh” against whom the nations raged, then as the anointed one OF that Yahweh, Jesus would be an anointed one of… Jesus!
Jesus would be the anointed one of the Yahweh Unity. The Yahweh Unity is called Yahweh, not Jesus. Jesus is the name of one of the members who became flesh as the Messiah, aka Yahweh our Righteousness.
Mike,
You asked:
1. Is there any explicit scriptural indication that Peter and John were aware of this “Yahweh Unity”?
2. Is there any explicit scriptural indication that Peter and John ever taught us about this “Yahweh Unity”?
If yes, then please identify the particular words from Peter and/or John where they teach us these things. Thanks.
John 17:11 …Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.
LU: Hi Mike,
I have been not feeling well (thanks for asking)…
Sorry to hear that. I pray for a rapid recovery to get you back to normal.
Mike: If “begotten” is simply a metaphorical way of saying that God has set a new king on an old throne, then it would most certainly also apply to Solomon, and all the kings who came after him. So if that is the case, Jesus would be one of many begotten sons of God.
LU: I believe that the Psalm 2 “Today I have begotten you” is said when the Messiah’s body was begotten from the grave, not having undergone decay, and installed as the promised king to sit on the eternal throne of the Davidic covenant. Solomon underwent decay. Those words did not apply to him.
So then being “begotten” by the Father is not a metaphorical way of saying “setting one upon a throne” like you first claimed, but instead a metaphorical way of saying, “setting one who HASN’T SEEN DECAY upon a throne”?
Are you sure it’s not a metaphorical way or saying, “setting one who is also called the Lamb of God upon a throne”? 😉
You do this a lot, Kathi. You say scripture X means that Jesus is a part of Yahweh. Then I point out that scripture Y says the same thing about another person (or a city), and then you import other things that are said elsewhere in the Bible about Jesus into verse X to make it impossible for the words to apply to anyone else. (“Yes, the same title is applied to the City of Jerusalem, but Jerusalem never said, ‘I and the Father are one’, therefore the title means Jesus is Yahweh, but the it doesn’t mean Jerusalem is Yahweh!”) ***
Show me “didn’t see decay” in Psalm 2:7. Show me “from the grave” in Psalm 2:7.
At any rate, I will fully accept your new conclusion about the meaning of Psalm 2:7… namely that it refers to Jesus being begotten from the grave and installed as a king to sit on God’s servant David’s throne.
But that means that Jesus being the “only begotten of God” didn’t happen until that point. And that means Jesus no longer holds any special creation situation. It means that Jesus, like all of God’s other spirit sons, was created by God just like all of the others. There is no “single cell binary fission” event, where Jesus was a part of the Father from eternity, and then was split out into a different being, but containing all the “substance” of the Father.
In short, it means that Jesus is just another angel of God – although the very first one God created. And that his “only begotten” status began when he was raised by his God from the dead. And since many others will also be raised from death to life like the firstfruit was (1 Cor 15:23), and will be likewise begotten by God (1 Pet 1:3), his “only begotten” status is a temporary one – and doesn’t hold as much weight as you once thought it did.
Do you agree with my assessment of the consequences of your claim that Ps 2:7 refers to Jesus being raised from the dead and set upon God’s servant David’s throne?
Do you also agree with me that it’s silly to think that a bonafide member of the Most High God will rule from the throne of one of the Most High God’s servants?
*** This is a paraphrase to make my point, and not to be understood as a verbatim quote of Lightenup.
Mike: Is the Father the only begotten god? Nope. Is Jesus the God whom no one has ever seen? Nope. You are pretending that John 1:18 talks about [a member of] God who is unbegotten, and whom no one has ever seen, and [a member of] God who was begotten and whom was seen by many. But those red words are not in the text. John 1:18 actually talks about two different gods – one who has never been seen by man, and one who has.
John also makes that clear in 1:1, where he tells us that a god was WITH the God in the beginning. 1:1 and 1:18 support and reaffirm each other. But any way you slice it, the Father and Son – according to what the scriptures actually teach (and not what you WANT them to teach) – are two different gods… one of them unbegotten and invisible, and the other one begotten and visible.
LU: If they are two different gods then they would be gods to different people groups but they are not.
Why exactly (and scripturally) would being two different gods mean they would necessarily be gods to different people groups? Have you not read about “the gods of Egypt” that Yahweh brought judgement against? These were multiple gods of one people group, right?
Have you not come to accept that God’s spirit sons, like Michael and Gabriel, are also gods according to scripture? Does that mean they can have no association with the Israelites – when scripture says they do?
Your response is illogical, unscriptural, and blatantly erroneous. I previously asked and answered a couple of questions. Maybe we should get YOUR answers to them…
John 1:18… No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten god, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him.
1. Is the Father the only begotten god? Yes or No, please?
2. Is Jesus the God whom no one has ever seen? Yes or No, please?
Answer those directly and honestly, and I’ll take it from there.
LU: They are together God of Israel and then to all nations.
That claim is also illogical, unscriptural, and blatantly erroneous.
Ezr 1:3… Yahweh God of Israel (He is God)...
Psa 68:35… The God of Israel is He who gives strength and power to His people.
Isa 54:5… your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Luk 1:68… Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people…
The God of Israel is a He, not a “they”. And since He is God of the whole earth, He is certainly not relegated to being God of only one people group.
Kathi, you are claiming unscriptural and completely illogical things in your effort to keep your failed doctrine above water. It is UNDENIABLE that Jesus and his and our God, Yahweh, are two different gods.
John 1:1… In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God…
Is it really logical to you that the one and only Most High God (comprised of two people) could be WITH the one and only Most High God (comprised of two people) in the beginning?
Mike: Thank you. So then you agree that the Hebrew word “elohim” (god or gods) refers to a PERSON or PERSONS, in Gen 1:1, right?
Genesis 1:2… Now the earth was empty and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Kathi, is a person mentioned in the second verse of the Bible? And if so, which particular word in Gen 1:2 indicates as much?
We can keep doing this, verse by verse, for the entire Bible. Or are you ready to concede that the word “god” always refers to a person (or a physical representation thereof) who is thought to have powers over nature and the affairs of man?
LU: I already showed you “whose god is their belly” so that would dispel your “always refers to a person (or a physical representation thereof)” idea.
Actually, you PRETENDED to have an exclusion to my irrefutable claim. I explained your misunderstanding, but it seems you are still pretending that this one statement in the Bible is a Get Out of Jail Free card. Okay. Let’s finish it…
Kathi, please DEFINE the word “god” in the verse you have alluded to… using Strong’s or any other concordance/dictionary you can find.
Mike: And if Jesus is a member of the “Yahweh” against whom the nations raged, then as the anointed one OF that Yahweh, Jesus would be an anointed one of… Jesus!
LU: Jesus would be the anointed one of the Yahweh Unity.
That’s what I just said. And if Jesus is a MEMBER OF the “Yahweh Unity”, and is also the anointed one of the “Yahweh Unity”, then Jesus would be the anointed one of the Father and Jesus (the members of your “Yahweh Unity”).
That would make Jesus the anointed one of… JESUS! Just like I said.
You haven’t refuted my claim, but have only repeated it. Can you REFUTE it? Can you make a valid argument that it’s possible/rational/reasonable for a person to be the anointed one of themselves?
Mike: 1. Is there any explicit scriptural indication that Peter and John were aware of this “Yahweh Unity”?
2. Is there any explicit scriptural indication that Peter and John ever taught us about this “Yahweh Unity”?
If yes, then please identify the particular words from Peter and/or John where they teach us these things. Thanks.
LU: John 17:11 …Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.
So then NO? Because the scripture you quoted isn’t “explicit scriptural indication” of either of the things I asked you, is it?
But since you brought (and keep brining) that verse up, it’s time I addressed it.
First of all, many (if not most) commentators think it says, “keep in your name THOSE you have given me”. There is a lot written about the confusion surrounding this verse and John 1:12, but here’s a good succinct summary from the Pulpit Commentary…
“Keep them, holy Father” (says our Lord), in and by thy Name, those whom thou hast given me. Οὕς δέδωκάς μοι is the reading of the T.R., on the very feeble authority from the codices, simply D2, 69, and some versions. It is also thus quoted by Epiphanius twice; but the reading of all the best uncial manuscripts, א, A, B, C, L, Y, Γ, Δ, Π, etc., numerous versions and quotations, is ῷ δέδωκάς κοι. Some very unimportant manuscripts read ο{, which Godet prefers as practically equivalent to ου{ς, regarded as a unity, “that which,” and as calculated to explain the ῷ of the uncials, and the reading οὕς. Lachmann, Tischendorf (8th edit.), Tregelles, Meyer, Westcott and Herr, and R.T. all read ῷ, which is thrown by attraction to ὀνόματί into the dative, and requires the translation, Keep them (in or by) in the power of thy Name which thou hast given me.
Confusing stuff, but clearly some mss, versions, and scholars have it as “keep in your name THOSE you have given me”, while other mss, versions, and scholars have it as “keep in your name WHICH you have given me”.
It is, however, important to note that even among those who think it is “your name WHICH you have given me”, most don’t understand it as you do, Kathi.
Meyer… the Father’s Name was simply given him as an ambassador or for purposes of revelation and manifestation… God has given His name to Christ, and that not in the sense of the divine nature entering into manifestation… but rather in the sense of John 17:6, for revelation to the disciples; He has for such a purpose delivered His name to Him as the object of a holy commission.
Pulpit… He has already said, “I have manifested thy Name, thy fatherhood to the men,” etc. And now he adds, “Keep them in the power and grace of this glorious Name, of which my Person and message have been the full expression.”
Cambridge… God has given His name to Christ to reveal to the disciples; and Christ prays that they may be kept true to that revelation.
Expositor’s… “preserve them in [the knowledge of] Thy name, which Thou gavest me”… This was the fundamental petition. The retention of the knowledge which Christ had imparted to them of the Father…
Ellicott’s… The thought appears to be that the revelation of the nature of God by Christ to the world (John 17:6), was that which He Himself received from the Father. “I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment what I should say and what I should speak.”
Most of the biggest names (Barnes, Poole, Gill) accept it as “keep in your name THOSE you have given me”, and so we have no way to know how they would have explained the translation “your name WHICH you have given me”. I can only assume it would be like it is explained by the scholars above. I believe the people (commentator or not) who think the latter translations means that a person named “Jesus” is also named “Yahweh” are few and far between.
After all, look at Exodus 23:20-21… See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way… Pay attention to him and listen to what he says… since my Name is in him.
Nobody thinks this angel of Yahweh is actually NAMED Yahweh, right?
And what about Acts 4:12… there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.
Nobody thinks this means that all men are now actually NAMED Jesus, right?
This verse you keep touting recently holds no more weight than your claim that the title “Yahweh Our Righteousness” means that Jesus IS Yahweh, but the very same title applied to Jerusalem DOESN’T mean that Jerusalem IS Yahweh.
You’ve built a flawed doctrine from little tidbits of scriptures here and there, that you intentionally twist and take out of context to make Jesus into his own God, Yahweh… all while completely ignoring virtually identical things that are said about other people (and cities) in other scriptures.
But you keep lining them up – and I’ll keep shooting them down. 😉
Mike
What I believe is that YHWH is the divine name of the Son of God BEFORE his incarnation. Jesus is his divine-human name.
Already in Psalm 24, I see (I am not the only one) the Son of God received by the heavenly host in the HEAVENLY CITY, as KING OF GLORY and named YHVH (in the original).
Psalm 24:7-10
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8
Who is this King of glory? YHVH strong and mighty, YHVH mighty in battle.
9
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10
Who is this King of glory? YHVH of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
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