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Hmmmm…since Yeshua was never called “Almighty” (except through special pleading by Trinitarians), what do we do with this verse?
Exd 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.
If Yeshua is part of the Triune God and equal to the Father, YHWH, why was he never called “Almighty”?
Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
JW's have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty.
However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty God. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.
Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts, is his name,
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
So tell us kejonn. Is “The Mighty God” God?
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,07:29) Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6. JW's have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty.
However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty God. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.
Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts, is his name,
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
So tell us kejonn. Is “The Mighty God” God?
Ah, yes. But if one is Almighty, is He not also Mighty? But one who is Mighty is not necessarily Almighty, is he?How about this: is one who is all-powerful not also powerful? But are all who are powerful then all-powerful?
See the very distinct difference?
Yeshua, NEVER called Almighty
.To all,
Please check out my thread on Philo. I think the parallels between this Jew (who did not speak of Yeshua) and the Gospel of John is rather eye-opening. I also think that Philo may have been the largest influence of all for the formulation of the Trinity doctrine.
Ooops, sorry. Philo thread can be found here.
Does Christ ever call himself the Almighty? Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord, which is, which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” Here, when Christ identified himself as the Almighty he uses the name which God used when he made himself known unto Abraham. Hence, Christ does use the name Almighty.
However, does the Bible state how or when Christ had the name Almighty? Jesus said that all things were given to him from his Father. Isaiah said his name shall be called speaking of a future point in time. So all the names that Christ is known by were given to him from the Father.
The Father on the other was not given any names. The Father just revealed himself by various names throughout the old testament, but the names were always his eternally. So Christ as the express image of his Father has been granted many names that are also attributable to his Father.Mr. Steve,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Revelation 1:8 is NOT Yeshua. It is God. The KJV uses a manuscript that leaves out “theos” for one thing. But the context is sufficient to overcome this “dilemma”. Check it out.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Now you can see the context. The key is the conjunction and (“kai”) in Rev 1:5.
Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,00:23) Hmmmm…since Yeshua was never called “Almighty” (except through special pleading by Trinitarians), what do we do with this verse? Exd 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.
If Yeshua is part of the Triune God and equal to the Father, YHWH, why was he never called “Almighty”?
KJ,
The special pleading society are on the phone, they want their term back!Once again it appear that you have just assumed that in every instance the title “almighty God” is used in the OT it's ascribed to the Father. Where's the proof? That aside, I think that Rev 1:8 most likely refers to Yeshua as in the prior verse He is described as “coming with the clouds”. It seems logical that the one described as coming in one verse would also be the speaker in the next. Also we have Yeshua called “first and last” in Rev 1:17 and 2:9. In Rev 22:13 the first and last is also called Alpha and Omega. So the first and last IS ALSO the Alpha and Omega. The subject in Rev 1:8 is, of course, also described as Alpha and Omega. Since it has already been established that the first and last is also the Alpha and Omega, it stands to reason that Yeshua (the first and last in Rev 1:17 and 2:9) is in view in Rev 1:8. There is only one first and last after all (Isa 44:6)…..
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 03 2007,16:36) That aside, I think that Rev 1:8 most likely refers to Yeshua as in the prior verse He is described as “coming with the clouds”. It seems logical that the one described as coming in one verse would also be the speaker in the next.
It does seem logical, but take a look at something I've noticed.There are two “voices” that John hears. One sounds like a “trumpet,” and one sounds like, “rushing waters.” One is God Almighty, and the other one is Jesus.
I have my mom's old red-lettered KJV, and interestingly enough, Rev. 1:8 and 11 are NOT in red.
John starts to “hear” the revelation in verse 8 and it continues from there. With that in mind, look at verse 10 which says a voice behind him started talking and this voice sounded like a “trumpet.” Then John turns around and doesn't see God Almighty, but he sees one like the “son of man” so we naturally assume it is Jesus he sees AND Jesus who he heard. But wait! After he describes who he sees, John says in verse 15 that his voice is like “rushing waters.” Well, that is different than a trumpet!
Chapter 4 verses 1 and 2 say that John was in the spirit again, and “….the voice I had FIRST HEARD speaking to me LIKE A TRUMPET said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this…” And then John describes being in the throne room. Obviously, the “trumpet” is God Almighty – the first voice that he heard in Rev. 1:8 and 11.
Thoughts?
Is 1:18.
Please support your view in relation to the “and” at the start of verse 1:5. Lets take the numbers out (the original did not have verse numbers) and look at it.
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–
Now look again at 1:8
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
You want to latch onto the word “coming” in the prior verse and relate to “who is to come” in verse 8. But the context of the phrase is found in 1:4, which indicates another besides Yeshua. Verse 1:8 then clarifies “who is and who was and who is to come” in verse 4: the Lord God, the Almighty.
If there is one thing I've noted about Trintarians, it is that they are horrible with context. You cannot escape the context of these verses.
One last thing, in relation to Rev 1:8, jump ahead to Revelation 4 for more context.
Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.“
Rev 4:9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”Correct me if I'm wrong, but when was anything ever created according to Yeshua's will? It has always been the Father's will that has been done.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 03 2007,00:29) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 03 2007,16:36) That aside, I think that Rev 1:8 most likely refers to Yeshua as in the prior verse He is described as “coming with the clouds”. It seems logical that the one described as coming in one verse would also be the speaker in the next.
It does seem logical, but take a look at something I've noticed.There are two “voices” that John hears. One sounds like a “trumpet,” and one sounds like, “rushing waters.” One is God Almighty, and the other one is Jesus.
I have my mom's old red-lettered KJV, and interestingly enough, Rev. 1:8 and 11 are NOT in red.
John starts to “hear” the revelation in verse 8 and it continues from there. With that in mind, look at verse 10 which says a voice behind him started talking and this voice sounded like a “trumpet.” Then John turns around and doesn't see God Almighty, but he sees one like the “son of man” so we naturally assume it is Jesus he sees AND Jesus who he heard. But wait! After he describes who he sees, John says in verse 15 that his voice is like “rushing waters.” Well, that is different than a trumpet!
Chapter 4 verses 1 and 2 say that John was in the spirit again, and “….the voice I had FIRST HEARD speaking to me LIKE A TRUMPET said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this…” And then John describes being in the throne room. Obviously, the “trumpet” is God Almighty – the first voice that he heard in Rev. 1:8 and 11.
Thoughts?
Seems the New Living translation agrees with your old KJV.KJ,
Sometimes it is disheartening how many versions of the Bible there are out there, and how different they can be in their renderings. Seeking truth has never been more difficult!
Good thing we have God's spirit to guide us.If we think about OT prophets, we recognize one thing: they spoke on behalf of God. However, they always acknowledged that the words they spoke were not their own, but God's words. So in essence, they were a fleshly vessel for God.
Now enter Yeshua. There was a certain difference that Yeshua brought than any other who could be called prophet of judge. That is, he spoke the words of God, but you rarely heard him say “And the LORD said” or anything similar, as the OT men of God might. BUT! Yeshua did say his words were not his!
Jhn 8:26 “I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”
Jhn 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
Jhn 8:38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
Jhn 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
Jhn 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
Jhn 14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
So in this regard, Yeshua was like the OT men of God, and that is why he compared himself to them in John 10:34.
Since we know the above to be true, but see that he did not often say “And the LORD said” or similar like the OT meno of God, one can now see what John 1:1 is likely speaking of: “and the Word became flesh”. God's Word, spoken through various means in times passed, now dwelled in Yeshua. But now we see the next phase — the “Word” is passed on to those who follow in his footsteps to continue what he started.
Jhn 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Jhn 16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Jhn 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.So as you see, Yeshua spoke what his Father directed him to say, and we in turn speak what Yeshua and his Father direct us to say, if we have the Spirit of truth within us. How do we know we now have the “Word” in us?
Jhn 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
Jhn 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
Jhn 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Jhn 14:19 “After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
Jhn 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
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Jhn 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
Jhn 15:27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
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Jhn 16:7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Jhn 16:8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Jhn 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Jhn 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
Jhn 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.Did you catch the statement in John 16:7? It says “if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you”. That which inhabited Yeshua now inhabits all of those that put their faith and trust in him, so that they may now speak on both his and his Father's behalf to the world. And just like Yeshua, men will reject us, because the world will not recognize the one within us, just as they did not recognize God's Word in many times past from the beginning of man. This is so because of the fallen nature of man and the adversary.
Kejonn;
When I saw that the Word in John 1:1 was referring to the Seed of the Word of God which can only be in and with God, it made me see the verse in a whole new light. God said in Genesis that in everything he created the seed was in itself. So the seed was part of what was created yet at the same time distinct within what was created. This is why the Word (the seed) was with God and was God and the same was in the beginning with God. The first several verses of John 1 are referring to God alone, not Christ except as the seed of God.
Kejonn;
This might also be why Paul said Levi also paid tithes to Melchizedek because he was in the loins of his father Abraham when Melchizedek met him. Levi did not physically exist but was their in his loins or the seed of Abraham.
Hi all,
I'm curious…why is “Word” capitalized in John 1:1 and not in 1 John 1:10?
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
I know the original Greek makes no such distinction, but is not Yeshua in us? If so, and Yeshua is supposed to be “logos”, why would the translators fail to capitalize “word” here?
And how is this “logos” any different than the “logos” of John 1:1? Both are “logos”. Makes you think that “logos” of John 1:1 is not all people make it out to be.
Here are some intersting places “logos” is used. This will literally be a “word” study
!Jhn 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
Jhn 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
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Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
Jhn 8:55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
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Jhn 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
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Jhn 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
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Jhn 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
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Jhn 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
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Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
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Act 6:7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
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Act 8:4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.
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Act 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
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Act 11:1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
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1Cr 14:36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
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Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
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Phl 2:16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
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1Th 1:6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
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1Th 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
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1Ti 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
1Ti 4:5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
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2Ti 2:9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
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Tts 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
Tts 1:3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,
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Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
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Hbr 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
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Jam 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
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1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
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2Pe 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
2Pe 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
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1Jo 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
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Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
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Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
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Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
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Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
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Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image,
and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.In light of these scriptures (and many more), why then is the “logos” of John 1 anything different than any of “logos”…certainly those that are “logos theos”, “word of God”, just like the “Word of God” in Rev 19:13?
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