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Nick,
I'm not necessarily ignoring “you”. I'm just ignoring your posts that don't really add anything of value to the discussion.
When you have something of value to say – something that actually addresses any of the things I'm saying – I will respond in kind.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2014,04:14) Gene, All 7 of your points are wrong – plain and simple.
Concerning #4, do you really think “The Being of God” could have been WITH “The Being of God” in the beginning?
Mike………I know they are wrong to you, Is that what i said, before listing them.You put God in a Box that fits your renditions of what Spirit is. But the truth is you simply do not understand, What a Spirit is nor what it can do, and by the way John 1:1 says “IN” the “BEGINNING” the word was with God and the “WORD” “WAS” GOD. “NOT” “A” GOD, as you falsely try to render it. Why because Word and Spirit are “TIED” together, it is Spirit that produces the WORDS that come from a Person. Seem you can't make scriptures out without some spin you must put on them to meet your dogma of “SEPARATION” of Jesus' IDENTITY with his brothers and sisters>
God himself said there was “NO” other God besides “HIM”, He know not “ANY”. But you could care less what God, or Jesus, say it seems. Jesus said Thou (some one other then the person speaking) art the “ONLY” (meaning no other) True (meaning real) God. But you say he really did not mean that, Jesus was simply mistaking. Tell us how does God “POUR” Forth of HIS SPIRIT on All Flesh Mike, If the Spirit of God is a SINGLE PERSON?.
peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2014,14:59) Tell us how does God “POUR” Forth of HIS SPIRIT on All Flesh Mike, If the Spirit of God is a SINGLE PERSON?.
When did I say the Spirit of God was a “single person”? I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a separate “person” at all. The JWs call it “God's active force”, and I believe that is a wonderful explanation of what the Holy Spirit is.Gene, do you believe “the Word” is the Holy Spirit?
Also, accusing me of “putting God in a box” isn't a very practical way of answering the one and only question I asked you in that last post. Here is that question again….. see if you can actually ANSWER it this time:
Gene, do you really think “the entire Being of God” could have been WITH “the entire Being of God” in the beginning? YES or NO?
No diversions this time, Gene. Just answer the question.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2014,10:34) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2014,14:59) Tell us how does God “POUR” Forth of HIS SPIRIT on All Flesh Mike, If the Spirit of God is a SINGLE PERSON?.
When did I say the Spirit of God was a “single person”? I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a separate “person” at all. The JWs call it “God's active force”, and I believe that is a wonderful explanation of what the Holy Spirit is.Gene, do you believe “the Word” is the Holy Spirit?
Also, accusing me of “putting God in a box” isn't a very practical way of answering the one and only question I asked you in that last post. Here is that question again….. see if you can actually ANSWER it this time:
Gene, do you really think “the entire Being of God” could have been WITH “the entire Being of God” in the beginning? YES or NO?
No diversions this time, Gene. Just answer the question.
Mike…. I believe the SPIRITS “PRODUCES” WORDS in a PERSON. The “BEING” you talking about is the “LORD” or YAHWEH , who IS our GOD, and Yes The LORDS, entire “BEING” was with him, and that included his Spirits which produces HIS Words and Works.Tell us are your words with you? or are they someone elses, and when you have to give and account, for “EVERY IDLE WORD” you have spoken, are you going to say those words weren't ME, they were another “BEING”, there another “BEING” “SEPARATE” from you, Are you so foolish as to believe that?
That is exactly how foolish you question is. God the FATHER is a SPIRIT according to Jesus, and Jesus also said the FATHER WAS “IN” HIM, Now tell us do you believe that the Father was TRULY “IN” Jesus. Now tell us do you believe that means, Jesus was “IN” Jesus, or was it the FATHER, who was “IN” HIM.
Now if you believe the FATHER was “TRULY IN HIM, Then ask yourself HOW was HE “IN” HIM, if not by HIS SPIRIT, which PRODUCED the WORKS he did. Can all of God indwell our BODIES with US, can God, BE ALL and “IN” ALL” According to Jesus He can.
But according to you Mike he can't. So we have a Choice to believe you or believe Jesus it seems, who said Clearly , The FATHER is “IN” ME and HE DOES the WORKS or should we believe like you Mike. only a Part of God was “IN Jesus, even though scripture says clearly, that the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus If you understood that you could also understand why God the Father said to Jesus Thy kingdom O God is an everlasting Kingdom He was not talking about Jesus' himself being a God, but God was working “IN” establishing God's Kingdom and that is why Jesus hands over to God The KINGDOM at the end of the thousand years and become Obedient and subject to it himself, why> , THAT GOD MAY BE ALL AND “IN” ALL.
Again as i have said you put God in a Box that meet your dogmas and false teachings IMO.
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2014,18:21) Hi MB,
None of the descriptions of the Word before the Jordan say the Word was a sentient being.
Sure they do, Nick. The masculine pronouns in John 1 tell us so.The fact that John the Baptist spoke about the coming of this Word BEFORE he was baptized tells us.
There are many things that tell us “the Word” who was with God in the beginning was a sentient person.
There are also many scriptures that tell us Jesus was a sentient person alongside God before the world was created through him.
Plus, Rev 19:13 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus IS the Word, and the Word IS Jesus.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 10 2014,08:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2014,10:34)
Gene, do you really think “the entire Being of God” could have been WITH “the entire Being of God” in the beginning? YES or NO?
Mike…. Yes The LORDS, entire “BEING” was with him, and that included his Spirits which produces HIS Words and Works.
Okay Gene,Let's sort this out.
You say that the “Being of Yahweh” includes His spirits, His words, and His works.
And that means your flawed translation of John 1:1 teaches us that the spirits, words and works of Yahweh were WITH the spirits, words, and works of Yahweh.
Do you see?
If “The Being of Mike” includes Mike's thoughts, words, spirit, soul, body, mind, legs, feet, arms, etc……. then EVERYTHING that makes up “Mike” is already INCLUDED in “The Being of Mike”.
And “EVERYTHING That Makes Up Mike” couldn't possibly be WITH “EVERYTHING That Makes Up Mike”. Therefore, “Mike” could never be WITH “Mike”.
Likewise, “God” could never be WITH “God”.
Do you get it now?
Hi MB,
John was a prophet-he knew the future.Sentient person is not in scripture about the Spirit of God.
That's because the Spirit of God ISN'T a sentient person – IMO.
The spokesman of God who bore the title “The Word of God”, on the other hand, IS a sentient person. One of his many other names/titles is “Jesus the Christ”.
Hi MB,
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
No mention of a sentient person before this -the WORD was GodHi MB,
Only a man was called the Christ, the Man Jesus, the son by anointing at the Jordan.
But the Word was with God and was God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2014,11:49) Hi MB,
Only a man was called the Christ, the Man Jesus, the son by anointing at the Jordan.
But the Word was with God and was God.
Nick……………………That is right, I see it that way also brother. The Jews then and now are looking for a human Messiah, Just as Moses told them, God would raise up from the Israelite's a Prophet “LIKE” Him, and Moses was no God at all but a pure human. None of the apostles saw Jesus as a preexisting God Being “morphed” into a human being of any kind. Paul said Jesus came from the Loins of King David, Jesus also said He was the root and offspring of David, scripture also says he was from the root of Jesse, which David was also from.The whole concept of Jesus being not, a Human being Just as we are, is of the Synagogues of Satan . It is Satan desire to moves Jesus away from his human “IDENTITY” with his fellow Human brothers and sisters, this false teaching was designed by SATAN to deceive and discourage humanity from believing they can attain to the “FULL” Measure and stature of Jesus the Anointed. It works to cause a mind set in humanity of making Jesus Different then they are, So they won't look to him as an example of what they can attain to. That is EXACTLY what Satan wants people to think, He does not want People to have a pure human identity and connection with Jesus.
If we see Jesus different then we are, we will not think we can attain, to what he is a “SON of GOD”. This Doctrine of “SEPARATION” disconnects and distorts our identity with him and moves Jesus away from us, it is a very clever and deceptive teaching, right from the very synagogues of Satan himself. A Doctrine which Jesus Christ will abolish at his return by his very own mouth, 2 Ths 2, It changes the man, Jesus, to a God, and makes him an object of Worship, rather then a fellow human being showing us how to have, an EXACT SAME relationship with God the Father (the only true God) as He has. These teachings of the Trinity and Preexistence's are without a doubt a work of Satan himself and his messengers. He has by it taken over nearly all of Christendom. There is only a few who seem to be able to see through it. IMO
Remember Jesus' words, the law and the prophets were until John sense then, the Kingdom of God is preached, but the violent have over taken it by force, Yes Satan has overtaken it , but a Few survive > IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2014,12:48) Can “God Himself” be WITH “God Himself”, Wakeup?
Its a trick question! The answer is simply a matter of how you look at it.For instance if Mike would tell the truth here he believes that Jesus is “a god” little “g”.
So Mike could say “God himself can be with “god himself”.
According to the way he looks at the verse he has to add an “indefinite” article “a” to the scripture which also is not found in the Greek.
So Mike's and the JWs translation reads “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was a god”.
But one can choose to see the scripture as translated without the article period.
So the question can be “Can Adam himself be with Adam himself?” The answer is Yes!
The Hebrew word for “adam” means man or humanity.
So would this be a true statement Mike…
“In the beginning was the man and the man was with man and the man was man.”
When you understand that the word God is a title that describes a particular type of being then it all makes since.
You have to watch the trickery in their questions. It is kind of like “Have you stopped beating your wife lately?” The question has no simple “yes or no” answer because it needs an explanation. “I never have beat my wife.”
WJ
WJ,
Are you of the trinitarian tradition that believes “the word is God” is saying the word is qualitatively God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2014,23:41) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2014,12:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2014,06:26) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 03 2014,20:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2014,06:08)
Kerwin,WHO speaks through Jesus in these latter days?
Mike,God speaks his word through Jesus. = God's word speaks through Jesus
No Kerwin.Those two things do NOT equal each other. Either “God” spoke through Jesus, or “God's Word” spoke through Jesus.
Which one of those is the scriptural truth?
Mike,Why I said they are the same is that the statement “by the word the ages were framed” means “by God the ages were formed” as one is the agent and the other the primary.
So does that equate “the word of God” with “God” in each scriptural instance? For example, when the Word was WITH God in the beginning, are God and the Word the same exact thing?Consider the King of Abyssinia, who also has a spokesman called “The Word”. Tell me if “the word” means the same thing in both of the following examples:
1. The Word of the King showed up late to work Saturday, so the king had to speak directly to some of his subjects.
2. By the word of the king, the opposing nation was invaded.
Can you see that the phrase “the word” means different things in the two examples? Would you ever use #2 to prove that #1 doesn't refer to a living, breathing BEING? Would you ever use #2 to prove that the Word and the King from #1 are the same, identical person or being?
Of course you wouldn't do those things, because you are smart enough to realize that “the Word” in #1 refers to a PERSON who is a spokesman for the king, and #2 refers to an order or command the king issued or decreed. And you know that to do those things I mentioned would be nothing but a weak attempt to bring disharmony and confusion into an otherwise easy-to-understand situation.
Why then do you do such things so often when it comes to our scriptural discussions?
If you believe “the word of God” in Hebrews 11:3 refers to God Himself giving a command to cause the universe to be framed, like in the NIV translation……….
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
……..then you are correct that the phrase “the word of God” in that verse refers, by extension, to God Himself – who is the one who actually framed the universe.
But if that is the case in Heb 11:3, then “the word” mentioned there is not the same “Word” from John 1:1, or Revelation 19:13. Because the “Word” in those two verses is not simply a “command” that God gave. Nor is the “Word” in those two verses God Himself by extension.
If, on the other hand, you believe “the word of God” in Hebrews 11:3 refers to the “thing” that became the flesh being Jesus Christ, then the phrase does NOT, by extension, refer to God Himself in that verse. In that case, the teaching is that the universe was framed through the being known as “the Word of God”.
You cannot just mix and match things to confuse the issue, Kerwin. You can't say that since David was APPOINTED as the “firstborn of the kings of the earth”, Reuben was also APPOINTED as Jacob's “firstborn”. The words have different meanings in different contexts. Are you able to understand this?
So………. what is your CHOICE in Hebrews 11:3? Do you believe that “the word of God” in that verse refers simply to a command God gave for the universe to be created, and therefore, by extension, to God Himself creating the universe?
If so, then you can't equate that understanding with the context of Hebrews 1:2, and say that a mere “command” of God spoke through Jesus to us. See? It is a different context.
On the other hand, if you believe that Hebrews 11:3 speaks about God forming the universe through “His Word”, then “the Word” and “God” are not the same thing. In that case, Hebrews 11:3 is more in line with Hebrews 1:2, and teaches us that God formed the universe through “His Son/The Word”.
I hope this was not too much for you to understand.
Mike,I do not see as you are getting the agent to primary relationship in those cases the agent acts according to the primary's commands.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2014,06:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2014,18:21) Hi MB,
None of the descriptions of the Word before the Jordan say the Word was a sentient being.
Sure they do, Nick. The masculine pronouns in John 1 tell us so.The fact that John the Baptist spoke about the coming of this Word BEFORE he was baptized tells us.
There are many things that tell us “the Word” who was with God in the beginning was a sentient person.
There are also many scriptures that tell us Jesus was a sentient person alongside God before the world was created through him.
Plus, Rev 19:13 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus IS the Word, and the Word IS Jesus.
Mike,Please, You already know John used the masculine pronoun because the word logos is male. Koine Greek is not like English and so unlike English their nouns are given genders.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2014,13:51) WJ, Are you of the trinitarian tradition that believes “the word is God” is saying the word is qualitatively God?
Hi KerwinI believe that the very essence of what God is as Spirit, is exactly what Jesus is.
There was a debate by a brother named Isa 1:18 and t8 a while back and he explains it best here…!
Also the Net Bible has some good commentary found here… Just click on the verse John 1:1 and the number 3 and you will see the commentary at the bottom of the page for John 1:1c.
Blessings!
WJ
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