Does the “Whole Earth” mean the “planet” in scripture?

[kerwin]

Seeking Truth,

The mountains mentioned are rather short mountains and 15 cubits is about 23 feet/8 meters.  Mt Arafat is 1200 meters above sea level and adding adding 10 more meters to that would leave some parts of the current world uncovered.  Denver, Colorado in the U.S. is about 1609.  Even the passage ways through the Himalayas are above that.  It would be a lot of coverage though.  A city wide flood would not qualify and that is all the evidence that scientists have claimed to find.

[Proclaimer]

@seekingtruth

I am not saying this is or isn’t the case, rather that we cannot deny or confirm any of these explanations using scripture alone. I think the story in Genesis is too vague to draw such exact conclusions.

Scripture doesn’t rule out necessarily that the area of the known world was flooded leaving eight souls in all, but that may not have had anything to do with China, the Americas, Australia, or Africa etc.

Scientist believe that at some point the world had one super continent that broke into two and then these further broke up. After the flood, the land started to break apart. At least I remember reading that in scripture once. If true, then when man was created, at what point was the world. One continent, two, or more. I don’t know.

Of course it is possible too that the whole planet was covered. But as we have read so many times before, the whole world is subjectively written from the authors eyes. In other words the world that they knew about. In fact, did any ancient man know that the world they lived in existed on a spherical planet. I think Enoch knew that according to the Book of Enoch, but he claimed to have been shown more than any man before him.

[seekingtruth]

I believe both the climate and the topography of the earth changed drastically during the flood. I believe later the climate underwent further adjustments and as the frozen flood waters thawed it further divided the “earth” as mentioned in Genesis 10:25 Two sons were born to Eber; the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was <b>divided</b>; (possibly when when NZ became an island).

During the flood I believe the earth went through numerous volcanic events as well as tectonic plate shifting/tilting with the effects still occurring in varying amounts all the way to Revelation 16:18

I would possibly agree to some arguments except that they conflict directly with the clear teaching of scripture.

Question, who do you believe wrote the story of the flood?

 

[Proclaimer]

@seekingtruth

Not sure who wrote it to be honest. If it was a quiz I would say Moses. But it could have been written by Noah originally. The Book of Noah or fragments of Noah exists in the Book of Enoch today. The book of Enoch (like the Bible) is a compilation of books from different authors. The book is also ancient. Enoch was the great-grandfather of Noah and it is not hard to believe that Noah took his great grandfather’s writings with him on the ark and further, that Noah added in his writings into the book. After Enoch’s son (Methuselah) died, the flood happened. Some believe his name was prophetic, “his death shall bring judgment”. He died the year of the flood.

Scripture quotes this book in a number of places such as: “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “‘see, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones'”. More about that here:

The Book of Enoch introduction

I might read the account of the flood and see what it says:

The Book of Enoch

Why am I talking about this book? Because it might answer who originally wrote the flood account and it might cast more light on the flood event. Our Bible doesn’t have enough information IMO to say for sure if it was a planet wide deluge or confined to the known world. Of course I wouldn’t rule out that it was planet wide. If God can create the planet, then he can also destroy it or renew it too.

[kerwin]

t8,

There are various teach of a great flood all over the world.  You can look them up in comparative myths.  Creation and  the first man and first woman doctrines also exist in many areas.  The situation is that no scientific evidence beyond certain interpretations of Scripture support the idea.  Given that the mountains of the area were covered by water as much as Scripture claims it was an extensive flood even if it did not cove the entire earth.    I have heard of no evidence that supports that claim.  If you choose to believe that claim is literally true then it follows that Satan falsified or destroyed the evidence and God allowed him to do so.   The only other legitimate option I see the story of the Deluge as a parable.  In  either case you would not judge those who took the opposite view or wavered between the two.

 

 

[seekingtruth]

Good points copied from Institute for Creation Research

Biblical Reasons
A few of the many Biblical reasons for believing in the global Flood are briefly summarized below. For those who believe in the Bible as the inerrant word of God, these should be sufficient.

1. Jesus Christ believed the Old Testament record of the worldwide Flood. Speaking of the antediluvian population, He said: “The flood came, and took them all away” (Matthew 24:39). Evolutionary anthropologists are all convinced that people had spread over the entire Earth by the time assigned to Noah in Biblical chronology, so an anthropologically universal Flood would clearly have required a geographically worldwide Flood.
2. The apostle Peter believed in a worldwide hydraulic cataclysm. “Whereby the world [Greek, kosmos] that then was, being overflowed [Greek, katakluzo] with water, perished” (II Peter 3:6). The “world” was defined in the previous verse as “the heavens . . . and the earth.” Peter also said that “God . . . spared not the old world, but saved Noah . . . bringing in the flood [Greek, kataklusmos] upon the world of the ungodly” (II Peter 2:5). Note also that these words katakluzo and kataklusmos (from which we derive our English word “cataclysm”) are applied exclusively in the New Testament to the great Flood of Noah’s day.
3. The Old Testament record of the Flood, which both Christ and Peter accepted as real history, clearly teaches a global Flood. Therefore, it seems to us that Christians, professing to believe in Christ and follow Him, can do no less. For example, the record emphasizes that “all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven . . . and the mountains were covered” (Genesis 7:19,20) with the waters of the Flood. This must have included Mount Ararat on which Noah’s Ark landed, and which is now 17,000 feet high. This was no local flood!
4. Since “all flesh died that moved upon the earth . . . all that was in the dry land” (Genesis 7:21,22), Noah and his sons had to build a huge Ark to preserve animal life for the post-diluvian world—an Ark that can easily be shown to have had more than ample capacity to carry at least two of every known species of land animal (marine animals were not involved, of course). Such an ark was absurdly unnecessary for anything but a global Flood.
5. God promised that never “shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth” (Genesis 9:11), and He has kept His word for over four thousand years, if the Flood indeed was global. Those Christians who say it was a local flood, however, are in effect accusing God of lying, for there are many devastating local floods every year.

Scientific Reasons
The earth’s surface and sedimentary crust also bear strong witness to the historicity of a worldwide Flood, and the early geologists (Steno, Woodward, etc.) taught this. Most modern geologists have argued, on the other hand, that the earth’s crust was formed slowly over billions of years. Yes, but consider the following significant facts.

1. All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or times in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits. Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.
2. Most of the earth’s crust consists of sedimentary rocks (sandstones, shales, limestones, etc.). These were originally formed in almost all cases under water, usually by deposition after transportation by water from various sources.
3. The assigned “ages” of the sedimentary beds (which comprise the bulk of the “geologic column”) have been deduced from their assemblages of fossils. Fossils, however, normally require very rapid burial and compaction to be preserved at all. Thus every sedimentary formation appears to have been formed rapidly—even catastrophically—and more and more present-day geologists are returning to this point of view.
4. Since there is known to be a global continuity of sedimentary formations in the geologic column (that is, there is no worldwide “unconformity,” or time gap, between successive “ages”), and since each unit was formed rapidly, the entire geologic column seems to be the product of continuous rapid deposition of sediments, comprising in effect the geological record of a time when “the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.”
5. It is also significant that the types of rocks, the vast extent of specific sedimentary rock formations, the minerals and metals, coal and oil found in rocks, the various types of structures (i.e., faults, folds, thrusts, etc.), sedimentary rocks grossly deformed while still soft from recent deposition, and numerous other features seem to occur indiscriminately throughout the various “ages” supposedly represented in the column. To all outward appearances, therefore, they were all formed in essentially the same brief time period.
6. The fossil sequences in the sedimentary rocks do not constitute a legitimate exception to this rule, for there is a flagrant circular reasoning process involved in using them to identify their supposed geologic age. That is, the fossils have been dated by the rocks where they are found, which in turn had been dated by their imbedded fossils with the sequences based on their relative assumed stages of evolution, which had ultimately been based on the ancient philosophy of the “great chain of being.” Instead of representing the evolution of life over many ages, the fossils really speak of the destruction of life (remember that fossils are dead things, catastrophically buried for preservation) in one age, with their actual local “sequences” having been determined by the ecological communities in which they were living at the time of burial.
7. The fact that there are traditions of the great Flood found in hundreds of tribes in all parts of the world (all similar in one way or another to that in the Genesis record) is firm evidence that those tribes all originated from the one family preserved through the cataclysm.

 

 

[kerwin]

SeekingTruth,

Three is incorrect as fossils themselves cannot be dated. Igneous rock is dated and settlement is dated from it due to relationship just like the fossils in the settlement rock.

I may look into the rest but whatever the case God does not lie; humans just misunderstand his words. Given that, the essential argument of the Institute for Creation Research is that they are not misunderstanding God’s words. That is acceptable as long as they are humble enough to admit they may be misunderstanding God’s words.

[kerwin]

SeekingTruth,

Question, who do you believe wrote the story of the flood?

I have no idea as Scripture does not tell us. Tradition attributes the first five books to Moses but I doubt that is the case. Moses wrote the laws God gave him down in a book. We have a copy of those laws today as well as history that occurred. The flood account has symbolism in it, such as the forty days and forty nights.

[Proclaimer]

Thanks for posting that seekingtruth.

After reading your post, I would like to add the following points to support either view. The reason I am doing this is because I am searching for truth and not trying to support any one particular view over the other. These are just a few ideas that come to my mind from either side of the argument based on rational thought only.

Further rational support for a localised flood

1. Did man cover the whole Earth in the pre-alluvial world? If not, then a judgement to wipe out all mankind but a few would not require a global flood, but a flood where men lived only. Why would God need to also kill animals that lived in unpopulated lands, islands, and continents, then reverse that effect by placing all those animals on the ark when he could have just let them live and flooded the area where men lived. It also makes this story more believable because the the Giant Red Kangaroo and the New Zealand Weta didn’t need to reside on the Arc in a localised flood.
2. The argument that the flood exists all over the world does not prove that the whole Earth was flooded. It only proves that the 8 souls that were saved passed the story of a flood (whether local or planet wide) on to future generations wherever they decided to live.
3. Scripture mentions that after the flood, the land started to break apart. Thus, the world may have been one continent originally, and if there was a flood, then it could have affected that whole continent. New Zealand for example is said to have once belonged to it, but it drifted further than any other landmass from the main landforms. So yes NZ could have been subjected to a flood, but that it belonged to the same one landmass. So if there was one continent as scientists believe, then the flood only needed to affect that continent which would require a large but still localised flood.

Further rational support for a global flood

1. According to one view inspired by Genesis, the Pre-alluvial world had a different climate and possibly atmosphere. It supported gigantism for a start and it was a lush tropical world due to a water layer above. There was no rain either, but in Paradise, water came from the ground (perhaps from the fountains of the deep). The whole world in essence could have been one huge oasis. The water layer above and below could have made the Earth a greenhouse gas lush tropical paradise. That water was then used in the flood with the result being a different planet, one with sea and differing climatic zones. The planet really needed to be changed from being called Earth to Sea. Only one-third is actual land now. An interesting aside, the new Earth will have no more sea. Perhaps this reflects what the Earth/world was like before sin entered into it.
2. It is said somewhere in scripture that God destroyed the earth with water, and he will destroy the earth again, but with fire. If the flood was only local, then so could the next destruction of this earth be local. However, that seems unlikely. It says both heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire, making it total destruction or renewal and not a localised destruction. If both destructions are comparable, it would seem likely to refer to the whole planet as we imagine the refining fire that will burn the ungodly and heavens and earth as not being something local.
3. The Earth moans at groans and awaits the revealing of the sons of God. It wavers like a drunk man. This appears to be the whole Earth, so the flood of the Earth could by this usage mean planet wide too. Haven’t done any study on the words used here, so the Earth could be the same word or not.

[seekingtruth]

@t8,

I also only want truth.

I believe that the scriptures as originally transcribed were accurate and contained all necessary truth, but they have been removed by thousands of years, thousands of miles, different; languages, idioms, and culture. This leaves plenty of opportunities for misunderstanding or other errors to creep in. So I understand and except there is much I need to learn about truth, trying to overcome the aforementioned obstacles but I believe it would be impossible to accomplish this if the scriptures are unreliable.

So to ignore plainly written claims such as “only eight survived” or “all creatures breathing air died” is choosing to stand on shifting sand.

My opinion – Wm

[terraricca]

hi

it seem that some have doubts about the scriptures being truthful to the original written wording of old ,well if so ,then i will say that they do not have a faith at the least not in the God of scriptures or in his son ,they prove it by doubting the truth of God it self , and so will never come to the full truth and knowledge of God ,

don’t deceive yourselves God knows how to tread the unbelievers, JN 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.,

and just to make your view yet more complicated read this ;

Ge 7:17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth.

this 40 days are they days of god or of man ? it could be of God this could then be 40 000 years of human years ,

Ge 7:24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days. and those 150 days are those also days of God ? could be

this would mean 150 000 human years added to the 40000 this makes 190000 years that Noah and all what was in the ark have slept through ,this is why apparently they fund human fossils as old as 190000 years old

Ge 8:1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded.
Ge 8:2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
Ge 8:3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down,

Ge 8:4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

now see how the scriptures goes back to the human calendar, now we back in the human time ,

Ge 8:5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.
Ge 8:6 After forty days Noah opened the window he had made in the ark
Ge 8:7 and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth.
Ge 8:8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground.
Ge 8:9 But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark.
Ge 8:10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark.
Ge 8:11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.

Ge 8:13 By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry.
Ge 8:14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.
Ge 8:15 Then God said to Noah,

to Noah and those in the ark time could had past without their knowledge for their was no windows to see the time go by ,

for why would God remember Noah if it would be only about 190 days of 24 hours ,what represent in God’s time a few minutes if that ,

this is for you to think about ,

[NickHassan]

Hi,

And what does THE FACE OF THE EARTH mean?

[terraricca]

hi

anything that was moving or crawling on it and the way it was looking at that time /bushes /trees/plant/animals /ect

[kerwin]

I see this as an intellectual idea. It is a debate of genealogies. I enjoy the exercise but it resolves nothing and there are more important things to be right about.

[terraricca]

K

like what ?

[terraricca]

does no one understand that to become a good carpenter is to put to practice your learned knowledge ,but you are only as good as what you have learned ,so if you have mastered the knowledge and the practice then you have become a master in your trade ,

i believe it is the same with God’s scriptures ,how more you learn it and practice it ,you become more and more knowledgeable of the truth in it ,until you can see and feel it inside yourself ,that at night you can hear the voice of God ,for you would have clean yourself of all the world falsehood ,

for the truth is only found in ;Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

and practice in;Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

[seekingtruth]

Interesting video from  Northwest Creation Network on the facts discovered about the flood shows the result of the earth reshaping forces which were occurring during and subsequent to the world wide flood

 

[kerwin]

Seekingtruth,

Your source is biased and I am tired of sources like it that male obviously false claims and so only serve to dammage the credibility of those that serve God. It is better to remain quite than lie in the name of God.

Christians are too gullible to those children of Belial who pretend to be Christians in order to make Christianity look bad. In this case I am not even willing to look at the video as the potential cost outweighs the potential benefit and I am partial to the argument. Imagine those who are not.

[kerwin]

T,

The message of salvation and doing the Lords will in all ways is always more important.

Scripture summaries the flood when it could pass a whole lot more of the story to us.

[terraricca]

K

you haven’t understood a thing of what I said ,sad

[Author]

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