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Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 16 2006,00:59) And do not get me wrong, that it is charity, the love of Christ that matters most in the faith. For what is faith without love? What is works without love? If not this the same trap that those of the Old Testament fell into? Did they not forget the greatest commandment? Love the Lord God, with all your heart, mind and soul.
For if they would have done this, they would have knew the Son. But because they stopped loving the Father, they became strangers and knew not the Son.
Good post H.Hi Casey.
You wrote in another thread
“Nick: Yes indeed sir. We do need to be born of water. I agree with you here sir. Now, theologians of the past have different views of what the water in this context could mean”1) Amniotic Fluid
2)The Spirit…in other words some translations may render such as “born of water – even the Spirit.
3)Actual Water in the mode of Baptism
Now, I think premise one is unsubstantiated being that unborn children no doubt are in the Graces of God who did not get a chance to be born of amniotic fluid. Which is the case of murdered infants in abortion. (Note: Anyone reading I do not wish to discuss abortion, ProLife or ProChoice. That is not the topic here).
Premise two holds some “water” pun unintended, being that other passages speak solely of the Spirit being synonymous with water. However as you correctly stated, there are many other passages that speak of the water baptism.
Now premise three I would think would be best justified in this passage. However, I never could figure out what Jesus meant in his rebuttal to Nicodemus that, “we speak that which we know and have seen” seemingly appearing to be that people were being reborn prior to Acts 2 which is clearly not the case. Moving on…
It does seem that all through Acts the IMMEDIATE response to belief is baptism refuting any defense (shallow defense) that one must go through a series of “test” to see if they are “worthy” to be baptized…I might add not to be baptized into Christ (Romans 6) but baptized into their system of teachings…Oneness, Mormons, JW's, Catholics…etc.etc.
I do not believe however that if one did not have a chance to get baptized that the person is not born again. For God is merciful and would take into all the circumstances surrounding the opportunity missed. A Baptist minister friend of mine (more like Father in Christ) was at a Church of Christ funeral of an baby in which the minister of that Church stated,”if this child had not been baptized it's soul would be eternally damned!!!” How preposterous is that?!!!
Now in regards to modes of Baptism it seems that the correct way would be through immersion. There was much water there, seems to say much water was needed. However there are some verses that give a good defense of infant and sprinkling Baptism.
I do not think God is going to say, “well, you didn't get dunked so no entrance…” Yet, I do think that if one does not get baptized after they believe and have MORE than enough time and opportunity, that person is in disobedience and will be judged for that disobedience though I do not “think” they wouldn't make it in. But, I am not God and cannot say without a doubt on such matters for Scripture is vague.Well, I didn't really want to get into baptism but I love theology and Scripture and couldn't resist. Maybe you and I should start another thread covering any aspects that are controversial or just wanting to talk about things of God. “
Good points.
We should not love theology, which is a vain attempt by natural man to encompass God, we should not theorise about salvation but WE SHOULD OBEY GOD and leave the detail stuff to Him. Jesus is the way and safety is in following him through water and the Spirit. It says of him that he has 3 witnesses in heaven.1Jn 5
” 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement”
We too need our names written in heaven with the same three witnesses, the sanctifying blood, water and the Spirit. Once we have obeyed we havethe door opened into the first resurrection and the 1000 yr reign with Christ. Some will be saved later through their works towards the brothers of Christ but we should not hope for such mercy but make sure of our election, as Heb 4 shows.
Hey Nick! Found it sir. I just read somewhat of the previous threads but due to time restraints I cannot read them all.
I hope you are not quoting me out of context. Well, you did post my whole message so I guess that would be hard to do. I guess what I mean is I hope you didn't take what I said and apply it to previous posts.
You seem to be responsible though in your handling of the conversation and not taken people's words and cutting/pasting to suit your fancy so I guess I will haveto trust you.
Quote Good points.
We should not love theology, which is a vain attempt by natural man to encompass God, we should not theorise about salvation but WE SHOULD OBEY GOD and leave the detail stuff to Him. Jesus is the way and safety is in following him through water and the Spirit. It says of him that he has 3 witnesses in heaven.1Jn 5
” 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement”
We too need our names written in heaven with the same three witnesses, the sanctifying blood, water and the Spirit. Once we have obeyed we havethe door opened into the first resurrection and the 1000 yr reign with Christ. Some will be saved later through their works towards the brothers of Christ but we should not hope for such mercy but make sure of our election, as Heb 4 shows.
Well in regards to theology I will disagree somewhat sir just with this comment,
“which is a vain attempt by natural man to encompass God”
I don't think it vain, for vanity would be to search of no effect. I think theology is our quest for God and to know Him more…that is, if it is done in such manner, not to become “puffed up”. As Paul said at the end of his life, “that I may know Him more!”
That statement he made is astounding to me! The same Paul who met the resurrected Messiah, who was taken into the third Heaven and saw things that was not permissable (nay, possible?) for men to speak (or comprehend?). Who wrote 3/4 of the NT!!! He said that he may know Him! That is awesome. I want that passion.Quote ” 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement”
I've reviewed this passage and comments on it. The passage is a little obscure. What are your thoughts sir?
Spirit – Dove
Water – Baptism
Blood – Either his humanity or the cross.
However, some have said and I find it plausible that it could also mean his humanity. Blood, water, and Spirit.
Now what testimony is John speaking of?
Hi casey,
You say
“I don't think it vain, for vanity would be to search of no effect. I think theology is our quest for God and to know Him more…that is, if it is done in such manner, not to become “puffed up”. As Paul said at the end of his life, “that I may know Him more!”Note that Paul wished to
know God and His Son.Theology can help men think they know ABOUT God but not to KNOW HIM.
Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.You need the Spirit for that.
You need the mind of Christ.
1Cor 2
“9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.”
Quote Theology can help men think they know ABOUT God but not to KNOW HIM.
Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.That sounds like a very good quote from “The Mind of Christ” or “God Chasers” or even “The School of Christ”, you can find this quote in every one of them.
I find it an end in itself personally. How are you to know me if I do not talk to you. Will you hang out with me and merely watch me? But with God how are you going to “watch” Him without reading about Him. People have experiences in the presence of the Holy Spirit but Proverbs 19:2 said zeal without knowledge is no good.
You cannot know God truly without His Word. If you interpret the text without considering the Body of Christ's helps and of great men of faith gone by you are an ententy of yourself. It is as foolish as when people misinterpret “you need none to teach you…” and then think they are going to shut themselves in a room their entire life and know it al.
Again think about what you are saying and how absurd it is Nick…
You mention again and again in verses above about the Spirit. Are we debating the same point? I never said you can know God intellectually without the Spirit of God for who knows the things of man except the spirit of man and the things of God save the Spirit of God.
I am going to give you some examples. In my years of study I have come across many a man who has said, “theology is useless…theology is man's vain attempt to try and understand God…we just need to read our bible…theology is of man…theology is pointless…etc,etc.
Without theology this site ceases to exist.
Without theology salvation is impossible.
Without theology the Bible is void and we are most miserable of all men.
Without theology you yourself sir have are wasting your time reading these threads and participating. You are defending your theology Nick! Think me wrong?
To an atheist: Do you believe in God? No?
That is his theology.
To a Muslim: Is Jesus' Father Allah? No? Oh yeah, you believe Allah begets not and is not begotten.
That is his theology.
To a JW (which you and I are most familiar with)…
Do you believe Jesus is God? No?
Do you believe we all go to heaven eventually? No? Only 144,00?
Do you believe that Nick and I are “in the Truth”? No? Only you?
Do you believe if I am dying I can get a blood transfusion? No? I mine as well drink blood?
Do you believe when a person dies he has an immeterial “soul” that ascends or descends? No?
Do you believe in the traditional view of hell? No?That is his theology.
To a Oneness Pentecostal: Do you believe in the Trinity? No? Oh, Jesus is the Father?
That is his theology.
To a Mormon: Is God alone and has always been? No? As man is so God was and as God is so man will be?
That is his theology.
To a Presbyterian: Can I in and of myself choose Christ? No? God chooses whomever He will and hardens whom he will, so it does not depend on man who runs but on God who is Sovereign?
That is his theology.
To an Arminianist: (Methodist, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Church of Christ, Nazarenes, Holiness, Oneness, Quakers, Catholics, Episcopalian: Can I loose my Salvation? Yes? I can fall away from grace?
To a Church of Christ: Can I be saved if I never get baptized? No? I must be born of water or I go to hell?
To a Baptist: Can I baptize my infant? No? He has to choose Christ and understand the Gospel first?
To a Catholic (This will be fun): Can I just believe in Christ and be saved? No? I have to adhere to all seven sacraments and die in the Grace of God?
Can I just go to God and never go to a priest? No? I must go to a priest and by his authority from Christ to Peter to the Cardinals to the local Diocese he has the right to administer forgiveness on Christ's behalf?
Is that all? No, I must perform penance?
What? I can pray to Mary, dead people called Saints. and pray for dead people who are in Purgatory because Christ's blood wan't sufficient enough for my sins to be remitted?
I can go to Purgatory?
Mary can hear me?
Mary is omniscient after she died then?That is his theology.
To Nick: Can I talk with you without my theology? No? I have to just expect the Spirit to type for me and explain things?
Ok Nick, not trying to be mean with that last one but sir you are propossing a double standard saying we do not use theology to know God and then you use your theology to explain God. Sir, every post you make is your theology whether you like the term “theology” or not.
Christian theology
1. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian theology practices 1. theology from a Christian viewpoint or studies Christianity theologically. Given the overwhelming influence exercised by Christianity, especially in pre-modern Europe, Christian theology permeates much of Western culture and often reflects that culture.Part of the series on
Christian theology
Foundations
Christianity · Holy Bible
Jesus Christ · Holy Trinity
History of Christianity · Timeline
Ecumenical councils · Creeds
Great Schism · ReformationMajor Traditions
Eastern Christianity
Eastern Orthodox · Oriental Orthodox
Syriac Christianity
Western Christianity
Roman Catholicism · Protestantism
Thomism · Anabaptism · Lutheranism
Anglicanism · Calvinism · Arminianism
Baptist · Evangelicalism · Restorationism
Liberalism · Fundamentalism
Pentecostalism · EcumenismImportant Figures
Twelve Apostles · Apostle Paul
Church Fathers · Athanasius · Augustine
Palamas · Aquinas
Luther · Calvin · WesleyKey Points
Creation · Fall of Man · Divine Law
Divine Grace · Salvation · Justification
Sanctification · The Church · The futureChristian theology practices theology from a Christian viewpoint or studies Christianity theologically. Given the overwhelming influence exercised by Christianity, especially in pre-modern Europe, Christian theology permeates much of Western culture and often reflects that culture.
Sub-disciplines
Sub-disciplines of Christian theology include:
Angelology – the study of created spirit beings, including angels, demons, and Satan
Anthropology – the study of humanity, especially as it relates to the divine
Bibliology – the study of the Bible in itself, and of its inspiration
Christology – the study of Christ, of his nature(s), and of the relationship between the divine and human in Christ Jesus
Ecclesiology – the study of the Christian Church, including her institutional structure, her sacraments and practices (especially the worship of God)
Eschatology – the study of the last things, last days or end times
Hamartiology – the study of sin
Pneumatology – the study of the Holy Spirit
Soteriology – the study of salvation
Theodicy – the study of the nature of evil
Theology proper – the study of God
Law and Gospel – the study of the relationship between Divine Law and Divine GraceHistory
See also History of theology
The history of Christian theology intertwines with Church history and covers important developments in philosophy and in the history of ideas. Specific issues such as heresy, Arianism, and the Protestant Reformation are of particular importance.Methodology
There are several methods to the study of theology. They are, in no particular order:
Biblical Theology – studying theology as it is presented and develops through the Bible by focusing on progressive revelation.
Systematic theology – studying theology by topic.
Constructive Theology – a Postmodernist approach to Systematic theology, applying (among other things) Feminist theory, Queer theory, Deconstructionism, and Hermeneutics to theological topics.
Historical theology – studying theology as it has developed (and is developing) in history.
Dogmatic theology – studying theology (or dogma) as it developed in different church denominations.
Pragmatic or practical theology – studying theology as it relates to everyday living and service to God, including serving as a religious minister.
Natural theology – basing theology on what is observable in the universe and nature, and on reason and experience, rather than revelation.
Apologetics – studying Christian theology as it compares to other worldviews in order to give a defense of faith and to challenge others' beliefs.
Narrative theology – studying a narrative presentation of the faith rather than dogmatic development.
Biblical hermeneutics – studying the Bible according to different sets of prescribed rules or principles of interpretations (also closely related to exegesis).
Spiritual theology – studying theology as a means to orthopraxy: Scripture and tradition are both used as guides for spiritual growth and disciplineSchools of Christian theology
Amongst the schools mentioned here some concern only one of the subdisciplines mentioned above and others concern several of the subdisciplines mentioned above.
Anarchism
Anglicanism, see also
Anglican doctrine
Arminianism
Baptist
Black theology
Calvinism (aka Reformed theology)
Charismaticism
Covenant Theology (aka Federalism)
Dispensationalism
Evangelicalism
Feminist theology
Fundamentalism
Liberalism
Liberation theology
Lutheranism
Methodism
Neo-orthodoxy
New Covenant Theology
Orthodox Christianity
Paleo-Orthodoxy
Pentecostalism
Personalism
Process theology
Quakerism
Restorationism
Roman Catholicism
ThomismHi casey,
You say.
“I find it an end in itself personally. How are you to know me if I do not talk to you. Will you hang out with me and merely watch me? But with God how are you going to “watch” Him without reading about Him. People have experiences in the presence of the Holy Spirit but Proverbs 19:2 said zeal without knowledge is no good.”If I wanted to know you would I study your phone book?
Perhaps look at some photos or read a biography would be some help.
No I would want to meet you and spend an hour or two with you?
But that is about as close as you can get to know God studying theology.
At least studying the bible in the knowledge it was from the mouth of God gives me insights into His nature.
Studying books about the bible takes us a little further away.
But rebirth lets you know the warmth and comfort and the discipline of our Father.Hi casey
You say
“If you interpret the text without considering the Body of Christ's helps and of great men of faith gone by you are an ententy of yourself.”Who are the great men of God?
In whose opinion are they great?
Are they known for the work of God done through them in power, or just their fancy words?
They will not be there when we meet the Master so why hide behind them now?Studying about God still leaves us at risk of the statement by Jesus
” I do not know you”
and so it can be just a vanity.Do you accept what John said in 1Jn 2
' 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.”
Hi casey,
Where is theology in the bible?
It is not there but faith is and actions based on faith and truth and love.
The rest is hot air.Quote If I wanted to know you would I study your phone book?
Perhaps look at some photos or read a biography would be some help.
No I would want to meet you and spend an hour or two with you?
But that is about as close as you can get to know God studying theology.
At least studying the bible in the knowledge it was from the mouth of God gives me insights into His nature.
Studying books about the bible takes us a little further away.
But rebirth lets you know the warmth and comfort and the discipline of our Father.Nick you are missing my point in the midst of you chaotic semantics sir.
Quote If I wanted to know you would I study your phone book? Phone book? Poor example Nick. Come on Nick you are more eloquent than that. A phone book (following your train of thought as best as I can on this point you made) would at best give you an idea where I live and my number to call me. In this reference that would be synonymous with prayer. How are we to pray? You theology on prayer would be a good place to start. I have read many a good book or two on prayer that was coming from a theological view. I think your problem is in the word and not the definition.
Quote Perhaps look at some photos or read a biography would be some help Has God given us a picture of Himself. We would have to see Him through Jesus's appearance. Now in America Jesus looks like the lead singer of a rock band (like Nickleback) or at times Luke Perry, ZZ Top and a comedian said “a member of Foghat”. He is always a caucasian with hair just below and sometimes above his shoulders, with hazel eyes. If you are African American you may have a picture of Jesus portraying him as black. You can find Jesus portrayed in many different cultures representing him in that culture. Jesus was of Isarelite descent so he woule look like one. The point I am trying to make is Jesus left of no picture or painting of himself so God obviously did not so choose to leave one and we shouldn't be making him into “our” image of who is. He is not a Caucian European descended male nor is he a black man descended from Africa.
A biography? Yes, a biography of me would help you get to know me. Bad example.
Quote No I would want to meet you and spend an hour or two with you? Have you been in the literal presence of God? Has he sat with you like He did with Abraham? You can spend an hour or two in prayer but that is all. People tend to come away however with thoughts that God “revealed” something or “spoke” a “word” into their heart when really they just listened to their subconscience and misplaced it with God. Also too many believers want to “pray” about everything from, “should I buy a car?” to “should I buy this pack of gum” and God is going, “uh, can you afford it? Will it break you?” He has to have a sense of humor. He may tell us in our prayer, “relax…quit being so mystical” and we tend to stand on a shovel and pray for a hole.
Quote At least studying the bible in the knowledge it was from the mouth of God gives me insights into His nature. We as individuals read the Scriptures with a theological biased lense. We read it from a postmodern perspective. We read it from an American perpective. We read it from our upbrining. We have all these infuences that are inbread in us that will without any forethought of our own, bering us to preconceived-presuppositions. Like it or not, it is true.
Quote Studying books about the bible takes us a little further away. Give me one example. With the counsel of many man a plan is successful. A fool has plenty to say but never anything to heed. Again, ONE example? The comment makes no sense. How can a book take me away from Scripture?
eg: on Calvin's Institutes. It takes me away from 2006 and takes me to the mid sixteenth century. So there I have already had a head start. Now, I will see what a theolgian who had no www to look at and search. He had no search engine for Google. Yet, he made a very exhautive work – just in this book alone! If I am curious about a passage that is obscure and strange to me in my finite puny little mind that I use 10% of, I can see what this man said and either agree or disagree. Either way I learn something more and have a basis for which to view that passage. Let's take that same obscure passage and see what Clement, Polycarp, Origin, Athanasius, Arius, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Erasmus, Bible translators through the centuries…all said or commented on. I can take ALL those views and come to a better idea and maybe a conlusion.Now I have to move on to something I missed earlier in the midst of your theology comment.
[/QUOTE]We too need our names written in heaven with the same three witnesses, the sanctifying blood, water and the Spirit. Once we have obeyed we havethe door opened into the first resurrection and the 1000 yr reign with Christ. Some will be saved later through their works towards the brothers of Christ but we should not hope for such mercy but make sure of our election, as Heb 4 shows.
Well, well, well Mr. Nick. it seems your “theological” treatise her is influenced by man's traditions after all. I speak of the 1000 year reign and your “some will be saved later through their works toward the brothers of Christ. It seems you have been heavliy influenced by dispensationalism. I have had the privilege of studying under the greatest defender of dispensationalism – Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie. I have heard ALL the arguments for a literal 1000 year reign. None of the Reformers held to one nor did Augustine. The historic premillenial (a “theological” term that describes your view here) position is not what you would probably believe. It is not what Dr. Ryrie believes and most of Christendom. A supposed “rapture” (now choose between pre -mid – post is supposed to happen as 1 Thess 4 is supposedly saying (I am not dispensational as you might be able to tell). Then there is going to be a seven year tribulation and then Christ comes back and sets up a 1000 year reign. Satan is bound during this time and somehow after he is released their are men foolish enough to join him in his attack on Yeshua and His Saints. Now a HUGE problem with that position is according to the literal reign, the Levitical priesthood (be it a literal blood descent or not does not matter here) is reinstated and the sacrifices are likewise. Now Dr. Ryrie and others say that this is probably done out of remeberance of what Christ did on the cross (not toture state
). According to ALL of Hebrews that is impossible. The blood of bulls and goats was not enough to cover the conscience of the Isarealites an
d had to be done daily – and yearly on the Day of Atonement. Christ entered the Holiest of Holies – heaven itself…ONCE FOR ALL.Well, I guess theology plays a bigger part in your life than you suppose.
Quote Who are the great men of God?
In whose opinion are they great?
Are they known for the work of God done through them in power, or just their fancy words?
They will not be there when we meet the Master so why hide behind them now?Studying about God still leaves us at risk of the statement by Jesus
” I do not know you”
and so it can be just a vanity.Do you accept what John said in 1Jn 2
' 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.”
NICK??? WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THEOOGY. THEOLOGY IS THE STUDY OF GOD. YOU SIR ARE DOING JUST THAT. THE ABOVE QUOTE IS “YOUR” PERSONAL THEOLOGY. Not mine, not anyone else's (well actually bits and parts of many others though you will never admit to this for some reason. Pride or rebellion?)
Quote They will not be there when we meet the Master so why hide behind them now? What? What do you mean by this statment? They will not be there? Are you implying that these men whom I mention are not true believers. I am going to make the presumption you are not but say with the assumption that you are, that would make you a judge of men you never knew and also on par with God's knowledge Himself!
That's it??? Wrong number? Searching? Yes, aren't we all? I responded with many a reply and that is all you have to say? I am thinking I hit a nerve and you cannot repond to my remarks. Very disppointed indeed. I would have expected that out of David but you? Well, David had a lot to say so I will go over there.
Hi casey,
You say
“We as individuals read the Scriptures with a theological biased lense. We read it from a postmodern perspective. We read it from an American perpective. We read it from our upbrining. We have all these infuences that are inbread in us that will without any forethought of our own, bering us to preconceived-presuppositions. Like it or not, it is true. “We should not read it, but rather ravenously feed on it, and let it minister understanding to our mind rather than just tasting it and putting to the side of the plate what we cannot accept.
Quote Nick you are missing my point in the midst of you chaotic semantics sir. –Casey
That tickled my mind. It's a feeling I often have.
Quote That's it??? Wrong number? Searching? Yes, aren't we all? I responded with many a reply and that is all you have to say? I am thinking I hit a nerve and you cannot repond to my remarks. Very disppointed indeed. I would have expected that out of David but you? Well, David had a lot to say so I will go over there. So…um…what does that mean?
Hi ,
Jesus said “follow me”
He also said”I am the WAY, the truth and the life”So we should follow him.
What he did we should do.So should we worship him?
Did he worship himself?Hi,
Jesus showed us the way.
Heb 5
'7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; “We should follow him.
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