The Way

[Lightenup]

Marty,
Scripture in John 1 or Hebrews 1 does not state “spirit of the son” anywhere but that is what you state…it's not there.
Kathi

[942767]

Hi Kerwin:

942767(Marty) wrote:Quote  

This scripture may explain Hebrews 1:10

I am not seeing what you are alluding to.  My problem is that the cite from Hebrews 1:10-12 comes from Psalms 102 and seems to be speaking about God instead of Jesus who is the archetypical righteous suffering servant.  I am sure the writer of Hebrews would have known the difference between the Messiah and God but that does not seem the case with Hebrews 1:10-12.   I have read Psalms 102 and I cannot see a way it could be translated to refer to a righteous suffering servant instead of God.  If you are seeing it please let me know.  Thank you.

My Response:

I am just trying to understand Hebrews 1:10.  I do not believe that Jesus existed as a sentinient person until he was born of the virgin Mary.  And so, I when I saw Isaiah 51:16 I thought it could mean that Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and that the heavens were the works of his hands in this scripture God states that He God puts His Word in His Children's mouth that he may lay the foundations of the earth and plant the heavens.  God made all things by Jesus, and only in that sense can I reason that he laid the foundations of the earth and that the heavens are the work of his hands.  

But in reading the rest of Isaiah 51, and also, other translations of this scripture, I don't believe that I can draw this conclusion from the scripture.

Anyway, I am still praying asking God about this scripture.

I also appreciate your response on my comment on Psalm 82.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

942767(Marty) wrote:

Quote

Anyway, I am still praying asking God about this scripture.

I myself always want God to interpret His mysteries for me.  As I was laying in bed considering the ways of God it came to me that perhaps the translators made an error in pronoun use.  I have heard that can be done with the Greek language and Hebrew may be similar enough to it that the same thing can be done there.  If so perhaps the translators were in error believing those scriptures were speaking of God when they were actually speaking of the suffering servant. I tried to test this hypothesis but I could not find what Hebrew word was translated “they”. Still looking at the actual passage in Psalms 102 I do not see how the pronoun use can be so mistranslated.  

Patience is a virtue and He reveals His truth about this and other scriptures when He chooses.  It is worth waiting for Him in faith.

[942767]

Hi Kerwin:

You say:

Quote

Patience is a virtue and He reveals His truth about this and other scriptures when He chooses. It is worth waiting for Him in faith.

I agree, and thank you very much for reminding me of this.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2009,12:08)

Marty, Scripture in John 1 or Hebrews 1 does not state “spirit of the son” anywhere but that is what you state…it's not there. Kathi

Hi LU:

In Genesis it is written that God made man in His own image, and in 1 Co 15 the scriptures state that the first Adam was made a living soul, and the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit.

John 1 states that in the beginning the Word was with God, and from Genesis forward we find the scriptures testifying either verbally or symbolically prophetically about the coming of the Messiah, and so God was speaking to humanity in this way and Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken in times past in various and sundry ways, and has in these last days spoken to humanity through His Son.

I may not have a scripture which states word for word the spirit of the Son, but I do have the following scriptures:

Quote

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Quote

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Quote

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Quote

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 24 2009,22:26)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2009,12:08) Marty, Scripture in John 1 or Hebrews 1 does not state “spirit of the son” anywhere but that is what you state…it's not there. Kathi Hi LU: In Genesis it is written that God made man in His own image, and in 1 Co 15 the scriptures state that the first Adam was made a living soul, and the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit. John 1 states that in the beginning the Word was with God, and from Genesis forward we find the scriptures testifying either verbally or symbolically prophetically about the coming of the Messiah, and so God was speaking to humanity in this way and Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken in times past in various and sundry ways, and has in these last days spoken to humanity through His Son. I may not have a scripture which states word for word the spirit of the Son, but I do have the following scriptures: Quote Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Quote Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Quote 1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,
Forgive me for asking this because you have probably made this clear beforehand but would you mind once again telling us when you believe that the Son of God began being the Son of God?

Thank you,
Kathi

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2009,01:35)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 24 2009,22:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2009,12:08) Marty, Scripture in John 1 or Hebrews 1 does not state “spirit of the son” anywhere but that is what you state…it's not there. Kathi Hi LU: In Genesis it is written that God made man in His own image, and in 1 Co 15 the scriptures state that the first Adam was made a living soul, and the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit. John 1 states that in the beginning the Word was with God, and from Genesis forward we find the scriptures testifying either verbally or symbolically prophetically about the coming of the Messiah, and so God was speaking to humanity in this way and Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken in times past in various and sundry ways, and has in these last days spoken to humanity through His Son. I may not have a scripture which states word for word the spirit of the Son, but I do have the following scriptures: Quote Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Quote Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Quote 1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Forgive me for asking this because you have probably made this clear beforehand but would you mind once again telling us when you believe that the Son of God began being the Son of God? Thank you, Kathi

Hi LU:

He became the Son of God when he was born into the world from the virgin Mary.

He was a Son of God under the Law of Moses raised by parents that were under the Law.

But it was in this world that he learned to apply the Word of God to his life. This is the sanctification process.

And so, we have the following scripture:

Quote

Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And we have the following scripture:

Quote

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

And so, he was a Son of God, a living soul, because he was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of a woman made under the Law. Here he is a Son of God as the first Adam, a living soul.

And the scripture state:

Quote

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

He was made, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit through obedience to the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross, and so the following scripture states:

Quote

Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Hi Marty,
Thanks for the answer. Another question…when do you think the Son of God became God?
Blessings,
Kathi

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2009,13:32)

Hi Marty, Thanks for the answer.  Another question…when do you think the Son of God became God? Blessings, Kathi

Hi LU:

He never became God. There is ONLY ONE GOD.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Marty,
The Father calls Him God. I know that He is not the one Most High God but He is still called God and worshipped. You won't call Him God and worship Him?
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi lU,
Should you ask servants of God to worship another servant?

[kerwin]

Lightenup(Kathi)

Quote

The Father calls Him God.  I know that He is not the one Most High God but He is still called God and worshipped. You won't call Him God and worship Him?

I beg to differ.  Our translations of scripture call Jesus God but God calls Jesus Elohim or even Theos which can mean child of God and no one that claims Jesus is Lord denies Jesus is the Son of God though they do define “Son of God” differently.  I am not even sure the original scriptures capitalized the title “Son of God” as we do though I do believe it is appropriate to do so.

I understand the confusion since we reserve the title “God” to just speaking about the Almighty but from what I have learned neither the Greeks nor Hebrews did so.  If anyone knows different then please let me know.  Thank you.

[Cindy]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2009,18:34)

Lightenup(Kathi) Quote The Father calls Him God.  I know that He is not the one Most High God but He is still called God and worshipped. You won't call Him God and worship Him? I beg to differ.  Our translations of scripture call Jesus God but God calls Jesus Elohim or even Theos which can mean child of God and no one that claims Jesus is Lord denies Jesus is the Son of God though they do define “Son of God” differently.  I am not even sure the original scriptures capitalized the title “Son of God” as we do though I do believe it is appropriate to do so. I understand the confusion since we reserve the title “God” to just speaking about the Almighty but from what I have learned neither the Greeks nor Hebrews did so.  If anyone knows different then please let me know.  Thank you.

Hebrews 1:8 ..But to His Son He saws:” Your throne, O God if forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness and hated lawlesness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladnessmore then Your companions.”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. etc.
Maybe you need to get your Bible out and study the Word.
We have to remember that God is a title. We do believe that the Almighty God the Father is above all. Ephesians 4:6
Peace amd Love Irene

[kerwin]

Cindy wrote:

Quote

Maybe you need to get your Bible out and study the Word.

I have indeed studied my bible and to study it correctly I begged God to give me the true interpretation.  I then stove to listen and test that the interpretation I received came from God and not from me.

Cindy wrote

Quote

Hebrews 1:8 ..But to His Son He saws:”  Your throne, O God if forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness and hated lawlesness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladnessmore then Your companions.”

That is correct but have you ever considered consulting a Greek and Hebrew Lexicon on that passage.  If you had you would find out that the Greek word translated to “God” is “theos” and is means among other things:

The New Testament Greek Lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others’ entry for “Theos” reads

Quote

4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way a.God's representative or viceregent 1.of magistrates and judges

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalms 45:6 which is a wedding song for any righteous man of which Jesus is the archetype.  If you looked at the Hebrew Lexicon then you would find that the word is “elohiym” and it means pretty much the same as doe “theos”.

Even if you want to ignore both of those scripture itself tells you God uses the term “gods” to mean children of God with these words:

Psalms 82:6(NIV) reads

Quote

“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

The question is should one go by all of what God says or by the traditions of man.   It is for each of us seek the truth and to answer that question for ourselves.

Cindy wrote:

Quote

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. etc.

I go into this more elsewhere but John could have been speaking of the Divine Word of God’s Reason that came to inhabit Jesus and thus for all practical reasons makes Jesus the Divine Word of God’s Reason.

May God give us both the true understanding of His grace through Jesus Christ.

Source 1 for Hebrew word “Elohym”.

Source 2 for Greek word “Theos”.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2009,23:22)

Hi lU, Should you ask servants of God to worship another servant?

Hi Nick, Kerwin, Marty,
If God tells the angels to worship the Son is it not ok for us to worship the Son also.

Heb 1:6
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
NASU

No matter what one believes about the Son's origins, the theos that He is considered is to be, is to be worshipped by angels.  Is there any other “theos” that are to be worshipped by angels besides the Father and the Son?

Blessings,
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Do you take this to mean we should worship two gods?

[kerwin]

Lightenup(Kathi) wrote

Quote

If God tells the angels to worship the Son is it not ok for us to worship the Son also.

I am afraid that translator bias exist and even in translating words I myself am biased though I hope and pray that bias comes from God and not from myself.

Still the Greek word translated “worship” in Hebrews 1:6 is “Proskuneo” that can be translated in other ways including “homage” and no one denies that Jesus is King over everything in heaven and on earth.

The New Testament Greek Lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others entry for “Proskuneo”

Quote

3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank a. to the Jewish high priests b. to God c. to Christ d. to heavenly beings e. to demons

Jesus is also the High Priest as well as being the Anointed One of God.

Lightenup(Kathi) wrote

Quote

Is there any other “theos” that are to be worshipped by angels besides the Father and the Son?

According to my source for the word “Proskuneo” there are others including angels and Jewish high priests.

Here is my source for the word “Proskuneo”.

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2009,14:53)

Marty, The Father calls Him God.  I know that He is not the one Most High God but He is still called God and worshipped. You won't call Him God and worship Him? Kathi

Hi LU:

Jesus is my Lord and I am subjected to God through him, but no, I do not worship him as God.  There is only “One God”.  Jesus said:  If you love me, keep my commandments, and I do.

And this is what my Lord has said:

Quote

Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.   Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.   Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.   Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

And the scripture states:

Quote

1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2009,03:48)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2009,23:22) Hi lU, Should you ask servants of God to worship another servant? Hi Nick, Kerwin, Marty, If God tells the angels to worship the Son is it not ok for us to worship the Son also. Heb 1:6 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” NASU No matter what one believes about the Son's origins, the theos that He is considered is to be, is to be worshipped by angels.  Is there any other “theos” that are to be worshipped by angels besides the Father and the Son? Blessings, LU

Hi LU:

Kerwin has given you the definition of worship, and I believe that David had given some good information along these lines as well.

Jesus is the head of the church and we are subjected to God through him, and he is worthy of all honour and praise, and in this way we worship him, but we do not worship him as God.

Jesus stated the following:

Quote

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2009,14:16)

Hi LU, Do you take this to mean we should worship two gods?

Hi Nick,
If we worship the Son are we not worshipping the Father also? We cannot worship the one without the other, they are the saving Godhead, the Most High God and His Son (the begotten God). The Most High God does not save us apart from His Son. The Son does nothing apart from the Father. We worship them both. IMO
LU

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