The Way

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2009,03:47)

Hi Marty and Kerwin,

Something that I do not understand is that you both want to teach what is true but neither of you acknowledges the Son of God as the God that the Father speaks of in this passage below in Hebrews. This passage acknowledges that the “God” that the Father is referring to (His Son), has a God, the Father Himself.

Not only that but the “God” that the Father is referring to is also the Lord who laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and that the heavens are the work of the Son's hands. Remember “laid the foundation” is written in the active voice meaning the subject (the Son) actually did the action. It seems to me that you both flat out deny the testimony of the Father regarding His Son here. Isn't believing God's testimony concerning His Son paramount?

Heb 1:8-11

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD , IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASU

1 John 5:10
…the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
NASU

Are you saved if you just believe part of the testimony that God has given regarding His Son and not all of the testimony He has given?

We are accountable to what God has given us and He has given us the book of Hebrews and the testimony of His Son who is called “God” who was alive in the beginning of creation or He could not have actively laid the foundation. If you do not believe that then you do not believe that part of the testimony that the Father has regarding His Son.

The Father clearly calls His Son “God” and He (the Father) is God of the Son. They are not equal which you understand yet both are called “God.” Why can you not acknowledge this?

Please do not read this as me condemming you. I am concerned and genuinely ask for you welfare. I do care about you as well as all of us here participating in the posts as well as those just reading along.

In His love,
LU

Hi LU:

God calls Jesus God because He “loved righteousness and hated iniquity”. Jesus is the express image of God's person.
He possess all of the attributes of God. He is the last Adam.

Why would God say to Jesus: “In the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth”, if Jesus literally laid the foundation of the earth. Would he not have already known this?

God made every thing that He maid with Him in mind. His whole plan for the salvation of mankind hinged on the obedience of Jesus to the Father and his resurrection from the dead, and so, because of this God speaks to him saying that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the work of his hands.

And so, yes, I believe the Word of God, but I do not believe what you are teaching.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 19, 2009 at 11:37 pm#125233

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,15:38)

Hi 94,
What or who was John speaking of that WAS BEFORE HIM?

Hi Nick:

The scripture states:

Quote

shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;

God made every thing that He made with Jesus in mind. He was foreordained.

Quote

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This then is my understanding which I have already given you.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 19, 2009 at 11:44 pm#125234

Participant

Hi 94,
So do you say it was the SPIRIT OF LIFE?

March 20, 2009 at 12:34 am#125236

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2009,11:44)

Hi 94,
So do you say it was the SPIRIT OF LIFE?

He was foreordained.

March 20, 2009 at 12:39 am#125240

Participant

Hi 94,
So how does that tie in with what John said?

March 20, 2009 at 1:30 am#125245

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2009,12:39)

Hi 94,
So how does that tie in with what John said?

I have given you the scriptures.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 20, 2009 at 1:32 am#125246

Participant

Hi 94,
Ok you do not know but cannot say it.

March 20, 2009 at 4:07 am#125250

Lightenup

Participant

Quote

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2009,03:47)
Hi Marty and Kerwin,

Heb 1:8-11

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD , IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASU

1 John 5:10
…the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
NASU

Are you saved if you just believe part of the testimony that God has given regarding His Son and not all of the testimony He has given?

The Father clearly calls His Son “God” and He (the Father) is God of the Son. They are not equal which you understand yet both are called “God.” Why can you not acknowledge this?

In His love,
LU

Hi LU:

God calls Jesus God because He “loved righteousness and hated iniquity”. Jesus is the express image of God's person.
He possess all of the attributes of God. He is the last Adam.

Why would God say to Jesus: “In the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth”, if Jesus literally laid the foundation of the earth. Would he not have already known this?

And so, yes, I believe the Word of God, but I do not believe what you are teaching.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,
Thanks for your response. You said that Christ was called God because He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. I say He was anointed because He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. He always was God, the God of GOD who became a man, died and won the victory over death and was thus anointed to be the mediator between God and man. We read it differently.

Anyway, you can at least see that He is called God. So, can you call Him God???

You ask why would God have to tell Him that He laid the foundation of the earth, etc. if He already knew it because He actually did it. I have no problem with this. Have you ever gone to a banquet where someone was being honored? Isn't it typical for the speaker to spell out the accolades of the honoree as he is receiving his award? It is a way of honoring him for his own ears as well as those around him. We assume that the honoree already knows of his accomplishments because he actually did those accomplishments. This passage in Hebrews is very likely the Son's inauguration ceremony into the celestial kingdom upon His resurrection and likely in the company of angels. The Son is being honored here and His accomplishment in creation is mentioned as a reminder of His great work.

We are reading two different books Marty. We are each accountable for how we handle the Word of God. We need to be careful.

Blessings, LU

March 20, 2009 at 4:22 am#125251

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2009,19:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,15:38)

Hi 94,
What or who was John speaking of that WAS BEFORE HIM?

Hi Nick:

The scripture states:

Quote

shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;

God made every thing that He made with Jesus in mind. He was foreordained.

Quote

This then is my understanding which I have already given you.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,
Do you realize that Romans 8 is speaking about those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose? They are foreknown here.

Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew(future believers), He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He (the Son) would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined (future believers), He also called; and these whom He called (future believers), He also justified; and these whom He justified (those same believers), He also glorified. (He glorified those same believers)
NASU

In the above passage I have placed my understanding of the pronouns in parenthesis. Do you read it with different pronouns? If so, how?

In other passages we can see that the role of the Son of God as the man called Jesus is foreknown. I do not believe that the Son of God needed to be foreknown since I believe He existed before the foundation of the earth but His future role as the Son of David, that was what was foreknown. IMO

March 20, 2009 at 4:43 am#125252

Participant

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Sanctification is the work of the indwelling Spirit.

And

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

We cannot make ourselves righteous.

I am not sure why you have the impression I am saying anything different. I am saying we have to obey Jesus’’ teachings on how to get the Spirit and after we obtain the Spirit we must obey his teachings on how to live by it.

You also seem to be missing the root of what I am saying and that is that you must believe that you can and through the power of God will stop sinning in this world because that is what the result of living by the Spirit of God which means to be filled with true God’s love for yourself and others. I assure you if you truly feel that love for yourself and others you will not sin for sin has nothing to do with such love. I also assure you if you do not feel that love then it follows that you do not have the Spirit or at least are living by it.

March 20, 2009 at 5:06 am#125253

Participant

Christology is a critical issue with the gospel just as we are told:

2 Corinthians 11:3-4(NIV) reads:

Quote

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Now this also covers those who add and subtract to the true gospels but I want to focus just on the issue of those that preach a Jesus other than the one taught by the apostles and other servants of God.

We are warned that there will be many false prophets and to our shame but God’s glory that prophecy seems clearly to be fulfilled in our day.

Matthew 24:11(NIV) reads:

Quote

and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Should we not take a warning from what is written and change our ways and seek the true God and the true Jesus.

Romans 1:18-25(NIV) reads:

Quote

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Should we follow a gospel made by man or should we instead seek the true gospel that comes from God and is plainly evident according to His characteristics.

March 20, 2009 at 5:07 am#125254

Participant

I made an error and did not include all my last quote in the quote box. It actually ends after the word Amen and then comes by final comment. I am sorry if this causes any confusion.

March 20, 2009 at 5:28 am#125255

Participant

Hi KW,
Why the obsession with sin?
The kingdom is not about such things but peace and joy in the Spirit of God.

March 20, 2009 at 6:06 am#125257

Participant

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Why the obsession with sin?

Have you ever read where it is written:

Matthew 1:21(NIV) reads:

Quote

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

That is what the whole message of Gospel is about saving God’s people from their sins through faith in Jesus Christ.

March 20, 2009 at 6:14 am#125258

Participant

Hi KW,
Exactly.
We are forgiven.
Any more questions?

Can we move on to more savoury subjects?

March 20, 2009 at 8:46 am#125265

Participant

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Can we move on to more savory subjects?

Overcoming my sins is what I consider a very savory subject since my desire is to be like God in true righteousness and holiness even as I am called to be.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

We are forgiven.

I am not sure you understand the difference between being saved from the results of your sins, which is a false doctrine, and being saved from your sins. The first is a false doctrine as it changes the grace of God into an excuse to sin while the second is about learning to stop sinning by the power of God.

God tells us that if we turn away from all our sins and obey all he commands then He will not hold our past sins against us. We can receive this promise if we choose to believe the promise of a true righteousness that comes from God and obey Jesus’ teachings on how to receive that promise. If we believe and so manifest the fruit of that belief by obeying Jesus’ teachings we will be forgiven for our sins even though we have not yet reached the goal of being like God in true righteousness and holiness because our belief testifies that we will reach that goal because God is faithful and will do it.

March 20, 2009 at 8:48 am#125266

Participant

Hi kW,
Stop focussing on the problem that God has in hand if Christ is in you.
He has greater jobs for you to do than fussing over His problems.

March 20, 2009 at 8:52 am#125267

Participant

Hi KW,
God offers us forgiveness and I mean forgiveness, scarlet becoming whiter than white.
He sees His adopted sons enveloped with the robe of righteousness of his Son, the Holy One.
Guilt is the unsustainable burden of the unsaved, and not the saved empowered by graceto overcome.

March 20, 2009 at 8:54 am#125268

Participant

Hi KW,
What is this conditional promise that sins are only forgiven for the striving ones?
Your God is not mine if that is all you can claim.
No wonder you seem depressed.
It is impossible.

March 20, 2009 at 8:55 am#125269