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Hi,
The witnesses are called “lampstands” and as trettep has pointed out, these are identified as churches in Rev 1.20
” ..and the seven lampstands are the seven churches”The letters to the churches are in fact addressed to the angels of those churches.
Rev 2.5 says
” Remember, therefore, from where you have fallen and repent and do the deeds you did at first. Or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of it's place unless you repent”So the threat here is to the angel responsible for the church and it threatens to take the church from it's place? What does this mean?
The angels referred to there are interpreted as messengers and since messengers give messages then the content is not for the receiver of the message any more than a postal worker is responsible for the content of your mail.
Paul
What is the purpose of the lampstands? http://webpages.charter.net/ptretter/seven.html If you can understand that – then you will know what it means to remove one.
Paul
Hi,
Lampstands hold lamps that burn and give light. The light is for the understanding and spiritual food of the assembly. They are not the source of light but the lamp of the Word is. The lamp burns the living oil of the Spirit which is everlastingly supplied.So to remove the lampstand surely is to remove all access to this supernatural life in that church. It stumbles along in the O so deep darkness unaware of the truth. God's Spirit has no part of their useless works and they are unteachable.
Ps
So the bridesmaids who have lamps but run out of oil also are these assemblies who do not still have the Holy Spirit when Jesus returns and are not expecting him or ready to greet him?Hi,
I have checked out the use of “men” in these verses in the NIV. The word used means “judicial witnesses” and not “men” and so a wrong impression can be gained from that version.Quote (Rudy @ April 10 2005,12:36) James 3: 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell…
…8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.We all operate according to the gift given us by God, we are not our own, He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Their ministry is the first half of the tribulation. Seals 1-7 and Trumpets 1-6. This brings us to the middle of the Tribulation and the abomonation of desolation!
Satan kills them through the Beast.
They will be killed Rev. 11:8 “where our Lord was crucified”, Jerusalem. The Beast will set his image up in the Temple claiming to be God. The witnesses will be claiming otherwise so when they are killed the whole world (almost) will be deceived and think that the beast is the Almighty.
Quote
They will be killed Rev. 11:8 “where our Lord was crucified”, Jerusalem. The Beast will set his image up in the Temple claiming to be God. The witnesses will be claiming otherwise so when they are killed the whole world (almost) will be deceived and think that the beast is the Almighty.Hi,
I'm new here and am still reading all I can. These are most interesting topics, and I have much more to read so I may be missiing quite a bit in my questions. Hopefully, it will not be too long before I can catch up on the may posts, which are thought provoking.
Also, I am not up to speed on how to post, so this may come out very different from what I've intended, but here goes.
From the quote above (I hope I did that right), I am wondering about the Temple mentioned. I once had this exact same belief, but then some ideas no longer seem to fit when I examine some of it piece-by-piece.
Going back a bit to the time that Messiah was slain, when he said, “It is finished”, I think he did not mean that all he would ever do in future was finished, but only that up to that point he had done all that he had been sent to do for that time.
At that time, there was darkness on the earth at mid-day, there was a violent earthquake which opened graves so that people emerged, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom leaving the Holy-of Holies open so that individuals did not need to approach through Levitical Priests. Instead the Messiah had now become the High Priest of the Melchizedecian priesthood.
In my thinking, this made the physical temple obsolete from this point on. It may be that it was not until Pentecost that the new temple (which temple we are) was begun, but in any event, it seems that the Levitical temple in Jerusalem was obsolete for some time even before 70 AD.
I do not know of any other temple (sanctioned by God at least) being of significance by the time the Two Witnesses are on the scene. My problem is that I cannot reconcile this part of the account about a physical temple so the account of the Two Witnesses is difficult for me to understand.
More than likely, I've overlooked something. Could you please help clear this part up for me?
I'll continue to read all I can in hopes to catch up on the interesting topics I've found at this site.
Thank you.
Reality
Hi Reality,
Sorry I don't have time to write much but I did want to point this out:Another temple (or perhaps a tabernacle?) must be built in Jerusalem for the Daniel 9:27 end time prophecy to be fulfilled:
Daniel 9
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.What do you think?
Hello Is 1:18,
Yes, I agree that a temple or tabernacle is necessary for the prophecy to be valid. I am questioning whose temple/tabernacle is being referenced.
I'm continuing to read past messages here, where I feel I am learning a great deal. One in particular mentioned that the temple could already be established in the designated area – that being a mosque. I will try to relocate that post, because it made perfect sense to me. I believe it was written by someone with the handle “Cube” or maybe “Rudy”. When I relocate it, I'll send you a copy to see what you may think.
Still reading for now.
Thank you lots for your notes.
Reality
Welcome,
The measuring of the temple in Rev 11.1f is surely symbolic relating to the separation of those in the temple[in Christ]from those who are religious[in the outer court] and the pagans outside. The tares are to be cleaned out from among the wheat through the disasters of the Tribulation. The two witnesses are not identified as men though NIV and others have falsely written as such.Hi Nick,
This makes reasonable sense to me except that I am still left with how 'symbolic' 2 witnesses could lie dead in the street for 3 and 1/2 days.
Still, they are identified in symbolic terms at verse 4. First at verse 3 they are said to prophesy for 1260 days while being clothed in sackcloth. That sounds rather like physical beings.
Then at verse 4, these 2 are identified as being the 2 olive trees and the 2 lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. That sounds symbolic rather than like actual physical beings.
By the time you get to verse 7, they sound once more like physical beings who can prophesy and can be killed.
Definitely by verse 9, they are spoken of as being literal physical beings. I have read notions that the reason they lie dead in the street in public view is because so many doubted that Messiah was raised from the dead because no one saw it. So the idea is to have them lie there in view until they are resurrected as shown at verse 11. That part doesn't sound like trees or lampstands but individuals.
Thank you for your notes. I'm back to reading more.
Reality
Hello again Is. 1:18.
I located that older post back in “Biblical Discussions” then to page 11 of 16 and under the topic “The Third Temple”. Here is an except which I find interesting.
Quote Daniel 9:27) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate [desolator]. **We know that Messiah has come and that the sanctuary has been destroyed. I don't know about a flood in Israel…but perhaps this fast forwards into the future.
And till the end of which war?
And what desolations? Can Israel be said to be desolated now? They certainly have had desolations.
Who is this that brings an end to sacrifice and offering…and what sacrifice and offering if the Temple is clearly destroyed? Does anyone know or are we holding to the common understanding that the Temple shall be rebuilt again?
This passage says nothing about rebuilding and neither did Jesus.
One who makes desolate on the wing of aborminations.
Consummation poured out on the desolator.
One thing to take into consideration against my idea is that the Mosque has been there for quite sometime now. But it is there, and that after the destruction of the temple.
Any other insights, you guys?Hope that came out correct. There is also another very interesting conversation that seems connected called, “End Time Prophesies” back in April 6-8th. I will return there and read more, but the above was notable.
Oh, by the way, the area where I was reading from Revelations 11 is from the RSV (my favorite at the moment).
Reality
Quote (Reality @ Sep. 26 2005,18:12) Hi Nick, This makes reasonable sense to me except that I am still left with how 'symbolic' 2 witnesses could lie dead in the street for 3 and 1/2 days.
Still, they are identified in symbolic terms at verse 4. First at verse 3 they are said to prophesy for 1260 days while being clothed in sackcloth. That sounds rather like physical beings.
Then at verse 4, these 2 are identified as being the 2 olive trees and the 2 lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. That sounds symbolic rather than like actual physical beings.
By the time you get to verse 7, they sound once more like physical beings who can prophesy and can be killed.
Definitely by verse 9, they are spoken of as being literal physical beings. I have read notions that the reason they lie dead in the street in public view is because so many doubted that Messiah was raised from the dead because no one saw it. So the idea is to have them lie there in view until they are resurrected as shown at verse 11. That part doesn't sound like trees or lampstands but individuals.
Thank you for your notes. I'm back to reading more.
Reality
Hi R,
The use of “three and a half”[1260 days] is symbolic too in scripture relating to half the seven year tribulation and the lack of rain in the time of Elijah. So it probably relates to years rather than days just as one day can be as 1000 years to God[2Peter and Ps].“Sackcloth” is also used to describe eclipses of sun and moon again relating to the signs mentioned in Matthew and Revelation.
The key to the olive trees and lampstands must relate to the similar use of such symbols in Zechariah and early Revelation.
How can “witnesses” also be “prophets”? What do they have to prophesy about?
ps,
So if you add the 1260 days to the 3 and a half years you have the seven year tribulation period. That is why I feel this is another analogy of that time with the worldwide evangelisation Yeshua spoke about in Matthew during the time of the woes [3 1\2yrs]followed by the time of wrath.What do you think?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 18 2005,21:49) Hi Reality,
Sorry I don't have time to write much but I did want to point this out:Another temple (or perhaps a tabernacle?) must be built in Jerusalem for the Daniel 9:27 end time prophecy to be fulfilled:
Daniel 9
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.What do you think?
Hi Is,
Just a question. Do you need a temple for these things to occur? Did the Israelites carry on these activities when they were away from home in captivity?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2005,20:04) Reality,Sep. wrote:Hi Nick,
How can “witnesses” also be “prophets”? What do they have to prophesy about?
Hi Nick,I just want to reply so you will know I've read and considered what you wrote. At this point, I cannot say whether witnesses can also be prophets or not. I never thought about this, so I'll need more time in this area.
Reality
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2005,20:04) Reality[/quote]
Hi R,
The use of “three and a half”[1260 days] is symbolic too in scripture relating to half the seven year tribulation and the lack of rain in the time of Elijah. So it probably relates to years rather than days just as one day can be as 1000 years to God[2Peter and Ps].“Sackcloth” is also used to describe eclipses of sun and moon again relating to the signs mentioned in Matthew and Revelation.
Hi again, Nick.On this part, I cannot quite see how the instance of 3 and 1/2 days leans more to the symbolic years more than the literal days all because in other places, the 3 and 1/2 days means years rather than days.
There is the instance where Messiah is in the grave for 3 days and nights, which parallels Jonah in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights.
I imagine we all agree that this was not years, but days.
By using the same reasoning though for other instances where we see examples of events lasting 3 days, 3 years or in some cases 3 months or 3 Sabbaths, we cannot assume that it must all be 3 days and nights simply because those major events involving Messiah in the grave and Jonah in the fish all spoke of literal days rather than years.
I hope I am not sounding too confusing to you, because I am finding it difficult to express all of this accurately.
And then possibly I've misunderstood you to be saying that the Revelations notations for 3 and 1/2 days for the bodies in the street must instead be years because other incidents lasting 3 and 1/2 days does turn out to be years instead.
I'll re-read all of that again after a rest from it.
Thank you for your explanation even if I have misunderstood it for the time being.
Reality
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