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Hi t8,
No offense to anyone but I must admit I am surprised at the lack of any deeper responses on this forum and I am doing my best to rattle those old cages and encourage some fresh thinking.
Hey. I am the most dogmatic contributor to these forums and I admit it. It probably reflects my own ignorance and insecurity in these deeper matters and that will change, hopefully, as I get more of the lie of the land.I agree with t8, for the reasons he has given. Clearly these are two men.
Hi,
The word “men” appearing in the NIV appears to be an added insertion. It would be nice to have access to the original manuscripts.Hi,
I got this from a footnote in my old catholic bible
42 months;the duration of the vicious persecution of the jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes[Dan 7.25,12.7]This persecution of 3 and a half years [1260days;v3.12.6]became the prototype of periods of trial for God's people;cf Lk 4.25, Jas 5.17. The reference here is to the persecution by the Romans.Notwithstanding the fact that these scriptures have double prophetic implications it raises some interesting issues. Fir example how much of these verses in Revelation specifically relate to the Jewish people in the tribulation?
ps the same bible suggested the witnesses were PETER AND PAUL!
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2005,10:53) I am enthusiastic with Revelation and the 2 witnesses. Does anyone else think the 2 witnesses are 2 men?
Does anyone think that the 144,000 are also men?Nick, I did a search on Bible Gateway under the keyword “witnesses” and in all cases (as it appeared to me) it was speaking of men. There were not that many verses so all of them can be read in a short time.
Also I wonder if the oil that is in the lampstands and the tree is representitive of the Spirit, (a common teaching I know). Elsewhere we see 7 lampstands as being 7 churches. We also see 7 stars as angels of the 7 churches.
Perhaps the Spirit flows into and from these men like the churches. Also they are said to represent all mankind. I know that there are archangels and perhaps they represent angels in the same way.
Also does anyone know of a bible verse that mentions “men” in a literal sense (e.g., These men have power to shut up the sky…), but is not actually talking about men. In other words are there scriptures that talk about men in a symbolic sense to mean something else and if so, what is man symbolic of.
As far as I am aware, the word 'man' is not symbolic, but is taken literally in scripture.
I wouldn't usually ask this kind of question, but for the sake of searching this I ask it.
Hi t8,
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
The word “men” appears to be an addition to the Word of God in Rev11.6.There are plenty of other witnesses that are not human in scripture eg
Lambs[Gen 21.30]
Stones[Gen 31.48,Josh 24.27]
Pillar[Gen 31.52,Is 19.19]
Song[Deut 31.19]
Earth[Deut 31.28]
The Lord[Jg11.10]
Sun and moon [Ps 89]
Altar[Is 19.19]
God[Mi 1.2]
Works[Jn 10.25]
Holy Spirit[Rom 8.16,Heb 10.15,1Jn 5.7]
Water[1 jn 5.8]
Blood[1Jn 5.8]
Rust[Jas 5.3]
Angels[Heb 12.1]
The son of God[Rev 3.14]The problem with the two witnesses is that they have to be both olive trees and lampstands. Lampstands represent churches. Olive trees are suppliers of oil which, as you say is representative of Spirit and in Zech seem to relate to men. But men cannot represent churches surely-more likely the reverse.
Churches make up the body of Christ and all parts are necessary to do so so two individuals are only two tiny parts of a large whole and inadequate on their own.
Hi,
Lampstands give light.The Word is a lamp to our feet.
Oil is anointing .We are anointed with the Spirit.I would say there are two effective assemblies still preaching the Word and anointing with the Spirit in worldwide evangelisation for 1260 days till the ministry is somehow stopped by the work of Satan, identified as being the beast that comes up from the abyss.
Hi,
The first three verses of Rev 11 seem to relate to a day of decision. On that day God will decide between those who are part of the true church and those who are not. Those who are in the temple are the priests of the new covenant [1Peter 2.9] and one with the Son of God, able to enter the Holy of Holies.Those in the outer court are those who are religious but not of the church and they will have no advantage over the rest of men in God's creation-that is why it says it has been given to the nations. We will have to be very sure of our election before that day, and we do not know when that day is.
The city of Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations for 3 and a half years as prophesied also in Luke 21. 20f.
But it does not necessarily directly connect to the next verse as it does not say that the two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem and it would be presumption to say so.
What does it mean that they prophesy in sackcloth?
Sackcloth was a sign of sadness from the things I have read. It means they will be in grief when they prophecy.
I think you starting to get on the right track.
Paul
Sure Paul,
If by “sadness” you mean a “sign” to God of repentance I agree.
Matt 11.21
“..For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre or Sidon which occurred in you they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes”It still raises the point of why should these two witnesses be showing the sign of repentance?
Hi,
We know that Jesus is shown with the sword coming out of his mouth,?symbolising judgement by the Word of God. Why do the two witnesses have fire coming out of their mouths? Is it the judgement of the earth by Fire as in 2 Peter?Hi,
The bridesmaids are appointed to welcome the saviour on his return. They understand the Word and are expectant of that return. They are fully dressed and prepared as members of the assembly.They have oil but there only mistake is to have insufficient.There are 10 of them[why?] but only 5 [why?]are fully aware of their role and prepared.Oil usually refers to the Holy Spirit. The message seems to be that only half the church will be still inspired by the essential Spirit at his return. Could this also relate to the death of the two witnesses?
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
What do you think? Is it a literal 3 days and a half or is it 3 and half years?
Paul
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.I believe that to be the judgement of the 7 Churches especially since it immediately preceeds the Two Witnesses. These verses seem to indicate to me that the Temple (Which is the Spiritual Temple not physical) is being measured. Those that have been worshipping would be the two congregations that found favor. I believe the rest to be in the court but still part of the Holy City (Jerusalem on High – referred to as the Church or the Temple in this case). Also, this seems to mean to be the sign that those are being sent into Tribulation. Also, the Witnesses begin prophesying at that time as well which I think is an aid to those in the Tribulation to give them a door. The other thing is that the Witnesses are dressed in sackcloth. That would indicate that the Witnesses are grieved – I believe its because their brethren are in the Tribulation and also seems to confirm to me that their mission is tied to those put into Tribulation as a test from God.
Paul
hi,
Rev 14.6f
“And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said in a loud voice
'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of His judgement has come;and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of water”Surely this is the work and the message of the “Two Witnesses” taking the cue from the angel?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2005,23:40) Hi,
We know that Jesus is shown with the sword coming out of his mouth,?symbolising judgement by the Word of God. Why do the two witnesses have fire coming out of their mouths? Is it the judgement of the earth by Fire as in 2 Peter?
Elijah called fire down from heaven to consume his enemies. Once he did it to demonstrate that his God was the true God by burning up his sacrifice as a sign.In both examples, the fire burned up the works of the enemy or the enemies of God.
We appear to have 12000 from each tribe (Israel) and 2 who represent all mankind.
It seems that God has representitives from the tribes of Israel and then all mankind (including the Gentiles). There are even 24 elders in Heaven.
God has a kingdom and in that Kingdom are positions of authority. Jesus said that we can rule and reign with him on his throne. In the Angelic ranks there are different types of angels and we have archangels over them.
We also know that Elijah must come again before the great and terrible day of the Lord. Christ came the first time as a servant and John who came before him was a humble servant. But Christ comes back as the reigning king and will destroy the enemies of God. So perhaps Elijah will return and consume with fire as he did before the prophets of Baal. Or perhaps chosen ones who operate in the spirit of Elijah to make the way straight for the coming of the Lord. Those who God uses to restore truth would be in line with this.
Hi t8,
The problem with Elijah is that you must be consistent if you apply a principle to scripture. You seem to have chosen an unusual principle when applied to the work of the Spirit of God. Your principle seems to be “Previous known abilities”.If you use the principle that to qualify to be a “witness” you must show that “person” has to have shown the same abilities prior to their being a “witness”, then you may be excited to announce that Elijah is one of the witnesses of Rev 11. He certainly closed up the sky and called down fire from heaven…but who is the other witness by this same principle? They both are said in scripture to have all these abilities not just one of them.
So where is the second “person” with similar abilities previously shown in scripture who thus can qualify to be the second “witness”? Where is his clone? You rule out Enoch and Moses etc.
The other problems that I see are:
The answer is too facile to fit with the known complexity of the book.
The works done through Elijah were those of the Spirit and not the man.
Jesus has told us that Elijah has already returned to fulfil Mal 4.5
The Spirit in Elijah has already also manifested in Elisha and John without these works being again manifested so they are not characteristic of that Spirit.
How are prophets witnesses?
Why Old testament prophets?
How are they olive trees and lampstands?etc etc
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