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Colter………..ha-Satan is indeed a proper name that describes a “SPIRIT” , Just as Wisdom and Love is, even though Scripture presents them as “BEINGS” are they not both Called “Shes”. So in your thinking Love and Wisdom are Proper “BEINGS” Right? Can you explain the difference? All are “PERSONIFIED” in scriptures. Think about it
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………….
..geneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,02:10) Colter………..ha-Satan is indeed a proper name that describes a “SPIRIT” , Just as Wisdom and Love is, even though Scripture presents them as “BEINGS” are they not both Called “Shes”. So in your thinking Love and Wisdom are Proper “BEINGS” Right? Can you explain the difference? All are “PERSONIFIED” in scriptures. Think about it peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………….
..gene
So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will? So maybe the other persons spoken of by name aren't real, just spirits? Wild stuff Gene.Colter
Quote (Colter @ July 19 2012,14:01) So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will?
That IS what you teach, right Gene?That might stem in part from your refusal to believe in free will. If you believed in free will, then you would be able to understand that God created all His sons with the free will to either follow Him or not. It seems that most of His heavenly sons chose to follow Him, while Satan and a third of those heavenly sons used their free will to choose NOT to follow and obey their Creator.
His earthly sons also have that same choice because of God's gift of free will.
Quote (Colter @ July 20 2012,07:01) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,02:10) Colter………..ha-Satan is indeed a proper name that describes a “SPIRIT” , Just as Wisdom and Love is, even though Scripture presents them as “BEINGS” are they not both Called “Shes”. So in your thinking Love and Wisdom are Proper “BEINGS” Right? Can you explain the difference? All are “PERSONIFIED” in scriptures. Think about it peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………….
..gene
So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will? So maybe the other persons spoken of by name aren't real, just spirits? Wild stuff Gene.Colter
Colter…… God created all Spirits Both Good and EVIL, does it not say God created the Serpent all thing are Created by ONLY One GOD. And Yes even Evil Spirit . Need Scripture?Isa 45:7……I form the light, and created darkness I make Peace, and create “evil” : I the LORD do “ALL” these things.
Colter question is when are people going to stare to believe what God himself Says, instead of Just ignoring his words and put there ideas above his words. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2012,08:08) Quote (Colter @ July 19 2012,14:01) So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will?
That IS what you teach, right Gene?That might stem in part from your refusal to believe in free will. If you believed in free will, then you would be able to understand that God created all His sons with the free will to either follow Him or not. It seems that most of His heavenly sons chose to follow Him, while Satan and a third of those heavenly sons used their free will to choose NOT to follow and obey their Creator.
His earthly sons also have that same choice because of God's gift of free will.
Mike ……> a Free will has nothing to do with this. Because there exist not such thing as a Will that is “FREE” ,or it simply would not be a Will, your still confusing a captivated Will with the Liberty God has given us to exercise our “CAPTIVATED” Wills , No Will is Free of Itself. The Words “FREEWILL” is an OXYMORON> But i do understand you seem unable to comprehend this, that is apparent to me. But that still does not change the Truth Mike. Here is another scripture for you to think about and try to put it together with your “freewill” theology.Isa 57:19…….> I create the fruit of the lips: Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and “I” will heal him
But you “freewill s” heal yourselves by your own freewill “CHOICES” and freewill fruits of your own lips “right? God is not in your lives your “OWN””freewill s” is in control of all your decisions and works, you own Wills are “free” and therefore separate from God's WILL, your salvation is from your own “freewill s” and therefore it is your own salvation by your own freewill choices, You have not need of a God you are a God unto yourselves, and follow and worship you own Captivated WILLS. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2012,02:24) Quote (Colter @ July 20 2012,07:01) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,02:10) Colter………..ha-Satan is indeed a proper name that describes a “SPIRIT” , Just as Wisdom and Love is, even though Scripture presents them as “BEINGS” are they not both Called “Shes”. So in your thinking Love and Wisdom are Proper “BEINGS” Right? Can you explain the difference? All are “PERSONIFIED” in scriptures. Think about it peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………….
..gene
So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will? So maybe the other persons spoken of by name aren't real, just spirits? Wild stuff Gene.Colter
Colter…… God created all Spirits Both Good and EVIL, does it not say God created the Serpent all thing are Created by ONLY One GOD. And Yes even Evil Spirit . Need Scripture?Isa 45:7……I form the light, and created darkness I make Peace, and create “evil” : I the LORD do “ALL” these things.
Colter question is when are people going to stare to believe what God himself Says, instead of Just ignoring his words and put there ideas above his words. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Gene B.I agree, but for what purpose,do you know?
wakeup.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2012,02:24) Quote (Colter @ July 20 2012,07:01) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,02:10) Colter………..ha-Satan is indeed a proper name that describes a “SPIRIT” , Just as Wisdom and Love is, even though Scripture presents them as “BEINGS” are they not both Called “Shes”. So in your thinking Love and Wisdom are Proper “BEINGS” Right? Can you explain the difference? All are “PERSONIFIED” in scriptures. Think about it peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………….
..gene
So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will? So maybe the other persons spoken of by name aren't real, just spirits? Wild stuff Gene.Colter
Colter…… God created all Spirits Both Good and EVIL, does it not say God created the Serpent all thing are Created by ONLY One GOD. And Yes even Evil Spirit . Need Scripture?Isa 45:7……I form the light, and created darkness I make Peace, and create “evil” : I the LORD do “ALL” these things.
Colter question is when are people going to stare to believe what God himself Says, instead of Just ignoring his words and put there ideas above his words. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Those words are the opinion of yet other men, because man tends to create God in man's own image. The ancients tend to believe that God created good and evil.Gene the fallacy of your philosophy has God being both good and evil; it would then be the will of God to commit good and evil acts.
Jesus while in Rome from the Urantia revelation:
GOOD AND EVIL
132:2.1 Mardus was the acknowledged leader of the Cynics of Rome, and he became a great friend of the scribe of Damascus. Day after day he conversed with Jesus, and night upon night he listened to his supernal teaching. Among the more important discussions with Mardus was the one designed to answer this sincere Cynic’s question about good and evil. In substance, and in twentieth-century phraseology, Jesus said:
132:2.2 My brother, good and evil are merely words symbolizing relative levels of human comprehension of the observable universe. If you are ethically lazy and socially indifferent, you can take as your standard of good the current social usages. If you are spiritually indolent and morally unprogressive, you may take as your standards of good the religious practices and traditions of your contemporaries. But the soul that survives time and emerges into eternity must make a living and personal choice between good and evil as they are determined by the true values of the spiritual standards established by the divine spirit which the Father in heaven has sent to dwell within the heart of man. This indwelling spirit is the standard of personality survival.
132:2.3 Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival.
132:2.4 The spiritually blind individual who logically follows scientific dictation, social usage, and religious dogma stands in grave danger of sacrificing his moral freedom and losing his spiritual liberty. Such a soul is destined to become an intellectual parrot, a social automaton, and a slave to religious authority.
132:2.5 Goodness is always growing toward new levels of the increasing liberty of moral self-realization and spiritual personality attainment—the discovery of, and identification with, the indwelling Adjuster. An experience is good when it heightens the appreciation of beauty, augments the moral will, enhances the discernment of truth, enlarges the capacity to love and serve one’s fellows, exalts the spiritual ideals, and unifies the supreme human motives of time with the eternal plans of the indwelling Adjuster, all of which lead directly to an increased desire to do the Father’s will, thereby fostering the divine passion to find God and to be more like him.
132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.
132:2.7 Goodness is living, relative, always progressing, invariably a personal experience, and everlastingly correlated with the discernment of truth and beauty. Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart—the shadows of potential evil.
132:2.8 Until you attain Paradise levels, goodness will always be more of a quest than a possession, more of a goal than an experience of attainment. But even as you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you experience increasing satisfaction in the partial attainment of goodness. The presence of goodness and evil in the world is in itself positive proof of the existence and reality of man’s moral will, the personality, which thus identifies these values and is also able to choose between them.
132:2.9 By the time of the attainment of Paradise the ascending mortal’s capacity for identifying the self with true spirit values has become so enlarged as to result in the attainment of the perfection of the possession of the light of life. Such a perfected spirit personality becomes so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that such a righteous spirit would cast any negative shadow of potential evil when exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise. In all such spirit personalities, goodness is no longer partial, contrastive, and comparative; it has become divinely complete and spiritually replete; it approaches the purity and perfection of the Supreme.
132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,09:46) you own Wills are “free” and therefore separate from God's WILL, your salvation is from your own “freewill s” and therefore it is your own salvation by your own freewill choices, You have not need of a God you are a God unto yourselves, and follow and worship you own Captivated WILLS. IMO
Gene,Having our own free will has NOTHING to do with our being able to save ourselves.
I have the free will to either follow my God or not to follow Him. It is HE who has the choice whether or not to save me.
These are the kinds of arguments that you always use, Gene. You say pre-existers work to separate Jesus from mankind by saying he was different than us. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? Who ever said Jesus had to be exactly like us in every way for us to follow him?
After all, God is different from us – are we unable to follow Him?What I'm saying is that the arguments you use against Satan being real, preexistence, and free will don't even make sense.
For example, how in the world would me having the free will to obey my God equate with me saving my own soul?
It just makes no sense.Free will is relative and limited
CONTROL AND OVERCONTROL
118:8.1 In the time-space creations, free will is hedged about with restraints, with limitations. Material-life evolution is first mechanical, then mind activated, and (after the bestowal of personality) it may become spirit directed. Organic evolution on the inhabited worlds is physically limited by the potentials of the original physical-life implantations of the Life Carriers.
118:8.2 Mortal man is a machine, a living mechanism; his roots are truly in the physical world of energy. Many human reactions are mechanical in nature; much of life is machinelike. But man, a mechanism, is much more than a machine; he is mind endowed and spirit indwelt; and though he can never throughout his material life escape the chemical and electrical mechanics of his existence, he can increasingly learn how to subordinate this physical-life machine to the directive wisdom of experience by the process of consecrating the human mind to the execution of the spiritual urges of the indwelling Thought Adjuster.
118:8.3 The spirit liberates, and the mechanism limits, the function of will. Imperfect choice, uncontrolled by mechanism, unidentified with spirit, is dangerous and unstable. Mechanical dominance insures stability at the expense of progress; spirit alliance liberates choice from the physical level and at the same time assures the divine stability produced by augmented universe insight and increased cosmic comprehension.
118:8.4 The great danger that besets the creature is that, in achieving liberation from the fetters of the life mechanism, he will fail to compensate this loss of stability by effecting a harmonious working liaison with spirit. Creature choice, when relatively liberated from mechanical stability, may attempt further self-liberation independent of greater spirit identification.
118:8.5 The whole principle of biologic evolution makes it impossible for primitive man to appear on the inhabited worlds with any large endowment of self-restraint. Therefore does the same creative design which purposed evolution likewise provide those external restraints of time and space, hunger and fear, which effectively circumscribe the subspiritual choice range of such uncultured creatures. As man’s mind successfully overstrides increasingly difficult barriers, this same creative design has also provided for the slow accumulation of the racial heritage of painfully garnered experiential wisdom—in other words, for the maintenance of a balance between the diminishing external restraints and the augmenting internal restraints.
118:8.6 The slowness of evolution, of human cultural progress, testifies to the effectiveness of that brake—material inertia—which so efficiently operates to retard dangerous velocities of progress. Thus does time itself cushion and distribute the otherwise lethal results of premature escape from the next-encompassing barriers to human action. For when culture advances overfast, when material achievement outruns the evolution of worship-wisdom, then does civilization contain within itself the seeds of retrogression; and unless buttressed by the swift augmentation of experiential wisdom, such human societies will recede from high but premature levels of attainment, and the “dark ages” of the interregnum of wisdom will bear witness to the inexorable restoration of the imbalance between self-liberty and self-control.
118:8.7 The iniquity of Caligastia was the by-passing of the time governor of progressive human liberation—the gratuitous destruction of restraining barriers, barriers which the mortal minds of those times had not experientially overridden.
118:8.8 That mind which can effect a partial abridgment of time and space, by this very act proves itself possessed of the seeds of wisdom which can effectively serve in lieu of the transcended barrier of restraint.
118:8.9 Lucifer similarly sought to disrupt the time governor operating in restraint of the premature attainment of certain liberties in the local system. A local system settled in light and life has experientially achieved those viewpoints and insights which make feasible the operation of many techniques that would be disruptive and destructive in the presettled eras of that very realm.
118:8.10 As man shakes off the shackles of fear, as he bridges continents and oceans with his machines, generations and centuries with his records, he must substitute for each transcended restraint a new and voluntarily assumed restraint in accordance with the moral dictates of expanding human wisdom. These self-imposed restraints are at once the most powerful and the most tenuous of all the factors of human civilization—concepts of justice and ideals of brotherhood. Man even qualifies himself for the restraining garments of mercy when he dares to love his fellow men, while he achieves the beginnings of spiritual brotherhood when he elects to mete out to them that treatment which he himself would be accorded, even that treatment which he conceives that God would accord them.
118:8.11 An automatic universe reaction is stable and, in some form, continuing in the cosmos. A personality who knows God and desires to do his will, who has spirit insight, is divinely stable and eternally existent. Man’s great universe adventure consists in the transit of his mortal mind from the stability of mechanical statics to the divinity of spiritual dynamics, and he achieves this transformation by the force and constancy of his own personality decisions, in each of life’s situations declaring, “It is my will that your will be done.”
Colter
Quote (Colter @ July 21 2012,07:40) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2012,02:24) Quote (Colter @ July 20 2012,07:01) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,02:10) Colter………..ha-Satan is indeed a proper name that describes a “SPIRIT” , Just as Wisdom and Love is, even though Scripture presents them as “BEINGS” are they not both Called “Shes”. So in your thinking Love and Wisdom are Proper “BEINGS” Right? Can you explain the difference? All are “PERSONIFIED” in scriptures. Think about it peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………….
..gene
So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will? So maybe the other persons spoken of by name aren't real, just spirits? Wild stuff Gene.Colter
Colter…… God created all Spirits Both Good and EVIL, does it not say God created the Serpent all thing are Created by ONLY One GOD. And Yes even Evil Spirit . Need Scripture?Isa 45:7……I form the light, and created darkness I make Peace, and create “evil” : I the LORD do “ALL” these things.
Colter question is when are people going to stare to believe what God himself Says, instead of Just ignoring his words and put there ideas above his words. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Those words are the opinion of yet other men, because man tends to create God in man's own image. The ancients tend to believe that God created good and evil.Gene the fallacy of your philosophy has God being both good and evil; it would then be the will of God to commit good and evil acts.
Jesus while in Rome from the Urantia revelation:
GOOD AND EVIL
132:2.1 Mardus was the acknowledged leader of the Cynics of Rome, and he became a great friend of the scribe of Damascus. Day after day he conversed with Jesus, and night upon night he listened to his supernal teaching. Among the more important discussions with Mardus was the one designed to answer this sincere Cynic’s question about good and evil. In substance, and in twentieth-century phraseology, Jesus said:
132:2.2 My brother, good and evil are merely words symbolizing relative levels of human comprehension of the observable universe. If you are ethically lazy and socially indifferent, you can take as your standard of good the current social usages. If you are spiritually indolent and morally unprogressive, you may take as your standards of good the religious practices and traditions of your contemporaries. But the soul that survives time and emerges into eternity must make a living and personal choice between good and evil as they are determined by the true values of the spiritual standards established by the divine spirit which the Father in heaven has sent to dwell within the heart of man. This indwelling spirit is the standard of personality survival.
132:2.3 Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival.
132:2.4 The spiritually blind individual who logically follows scientific dictation, social usage, and religious dogma stands in grave danger of sacrificing his moral freedom and losing his spiritual liberty. Such a soul is destined to become an intellectual parrot, a social automaton, and a slave to religious authority.
132:2.5 Goodness is always growing toward new levels of the increasing liberty of moral self-realization and spiritual personality attainment—the discovery of, and identification with, the indwelling Adjuster. An experience is good when it heightens the appreciation of beauty, augments the moral will, enhances the discernment of truth, enlarges the capacity to love and serve one’s fellows, exalts the spiritual ideals, and unifies the supreme human motives of time with the eternal plans of the indwelling Adjuster, all of which lead directly to an increased desire to do the Father’s will, thereby fostering the divine passion to find God and to be more like him.
132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.
132:2.7 Goodness is living, relative, always progressing, invariably a personal experience, and everlastingly correlated with the discernment of truth and beauty. Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart—the shadows of potential evil.
132:2.8 Until you attain Paradise levels, goodness will always be more of a quest than a possession, more of a goal than an experience of attainment. But even as you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you experience increasing satisfaction in the partial attainment of goodness. The presence of goodness and evil in the world is in itself positive proof of the existence and reality of man’s moral will, the personality, which thus identifies these values and is also able to choose between them.
132:2.9 By the time of the attainment of Paradise the ascending mortal’s capacity for identifying the self with true spirit values has become so enlarged as to result in the attainment of the perfection of the possession of the light of life. Such a perfected spirit personality becomes so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that such a righteous spirit would cast any negative shadow of potential evil when exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise. In all such spirit personalities, goodness is no longer partial, contrastive, and comparative; it has become divinely complete and spiritually replete; it approaches the purity and perfection of the Supreme.
132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.
Colter……..Talk about fallacy's , So many words , So little SAID.peace and love………………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2012,12:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,09:46) you own Wills are “free” and therefore separate from God's WILL, your salvation is from your own “freewill s” and therefore it is your own salvation by your own freewill choices, You have not need of a God you are a God unto yourselves, and follow and worship you own Captivated WILLS. IMO
Gene,Having our own free will has NOTHING to do with our being able to save ourselves.
I have the free will to either follow my God or not to follow Him. It is HE who has the choice whether or not to save me.
These are the kinds of arguments that you always use, Gene. You say pre-existers work to separate Jesus from mankind by saying he was different than us. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? Who ever said Jesus had to be exactly like us in every way for us to follow him?
After all, God is different from us – are we unable to follow Him?What I'm saying is that the arguments you use against Satan being real, preexistence, and free will don't even make sense.
For example, how in the world would me having the free will to obey my God equate with me saving my own soul?
It just makes no sense.
Mike…..On the one hand you say, Having our own Free Will has nothing to do with Saving you and then on the other Hand you say You have a “FREEWILL” to either follow your God or not to follow him right> So in whose hand is you salvation really (IN) is it not your own hand by “YOUR” Choice to Follow GOD through your OWN so-called “FREEWILL” . That make you your own savior by you own “freewill” Choice. But what does scripture say?What if God willing to Show he has mercy “CREATES” Vessels of Mercy, and what if God Willing To show He has wrath “CREATES” Vessels of Wrath. Now if God creates people for Wrath or for Mercy , where is you so-called “Free” Will found in that , to me it seem God is in total control of all human Vessels for Mercy or Wrath. God does whatsoever He “wills” with all of his creation and that includes all Souls and Wills. Or don't you believe this Mike….>
for he works in us “BOTH” to Will and do of “HIS” good pleasure. There is no such thing as a will being FREE, Because God allows us to “exercise” our “CAPTIVATED” WILLS , in no way mean they are FREE THEMSELVES Mike.
Now as concerning Preexistences Working to separating Jesus for Mankind by saying he is different then we are. That is exactly what Both Trinitarians and Preexistences do. They move Jesus' “IDENTITY” with us HUMANS away from US< Making him "DIFFERENT" then we are. It is a subtle work causing us to not believe what Jesus accomplished as a Pure Human Being with the help of GOD , we can also attain to. It move Jesus away for Us so we can not identity with Him in anyway. It is a total corruption of the Will and Work of God and Jesus HIMSELF. Why can't you understand this Mike.
You say whoever said Jesus had to be “EXACTLY” LIKE US The scriptures do in many place Say He would be from Mankind , God the FATHER , Moses , the Prophets, and even Jesus also said it calling himself over and over THE SON OF MAN. Jesus was Prophesied by God in Genesis to come through the “seed of a Women” not some MORPHED preexisting BEING MIKE.
Another Point is that unless Jesus was “EXACTLY” a HUMAN BEING He could Not have Qualified under the LAW to be a KINSMEN REDEEMER>
Mike where have i said there is no Satan, what is said is there is no SATAN “PERSON” OR “BEING”, there certainly is A ha-satan Spirit that exists and effects all mankind.
You still don't seem to understand what a SPIRIT REALLY (IS) it appears Mike.
I believe someday you will and these things will in that day make sense to you. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
To ALL………..A KEY is to truly understand what Spirit (IS) , it will open up many many Scriptures to us all. Spirits are not “BEINGS” they are what is (IN) BEINGS. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2012,01:47) Quote (Colter @ July 21 2012,07:40) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2012,02:24) Quote (Colter @ July 20 2012,07:01) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,02:10) Colter………..ha-Satan is indeed a proper name that describes a “SPIRIT” , Just as Wisdom and Love is, even though Scripture presents them as “BEINGS” are they not both Called “Shes”. So in your thinking Love and Wisdom are Proper “BEINGS” Right? Can you explain the difference? All are “PERSONIFIED” in scriptures. Think about it peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………………….
..gene
So in your theology God creates an evil spirit, that runs counter to his own will? So maybe the other persons spoken of by name aren't real, just spirits? Wild stuff Gene.Colter
Colter…… God created all Spirits Both Good and EVIL, does it not say God created the Serpent all thing are Created by ONLY One GOD. And Yes even Evil Spirit . Need Scripture?Isa 45:7……I form the light, and created darkness I make Peace, and create “evil” : I the LORD do “ALL” these things.
Colter question is when are people going to stare to believe what God himself Says, instead of Just ignoring his words and put there ideas above his words. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Those words are the opinion of yet other men, because man tends to create God in man's own image. The ancients tend to believe that God created good and evil.Gene the fallacy of your philosophy has God being both good and evil; it would then be the will of God to commit good and evil acts.
Jesus while in Rome from the Urantia revelation:
GOOD AND EVIL
132:2.1 Mardus was the acknowledged leader of the Cynics of Rome, and he became a great friend of the scribe of Damascus. Day after day he conversed with Jesus, and night upon night he listened to his supernal teaching. Among the more important discussions with Mardus was the one designed to answer this sincere Cynic’s question about good and evil. In substance, and in twentieth-century phraseology, Jesus said:
132:2.2 My brother, good and evil are merely words symbolizing relative levels of human comprehension of the observable universe. If you are ethically lazy and socially indifferent, you can take as your standard of good the current social usages. If you are spiritually indolent and morally unprogressive, you may take as your standards of good the religious practices and traditions of your contemporaries. But the soul that survives time and emerges into eternity must make a living and personal choice between good and evil as they are determined by the true values of the spiritual standards established by the divine spirit which the Father in heaven has sent to dwell within the heart of man. This indwelling spirit is the standard of personality survival.
132:2.3 Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival.
132:2.4 The spiritually blind individual who logically follows scientific dictation, social usage, and religious dogma stands in grave danger of sacrificing his moral freedom and losing his spiritual liberty. Such a soul is destined to become an intellectual parrot, a social automaton, and a slave to religious authority.
132:2.5 Goodness is always growing toward new levels of the increasing liberty of moral self-realization and spiritual personality attainment—the discovery of, and identification with, the indwelling Adjuster. An experience is good when it heightens the appreciation of beauty, augments the moral will, enhances the discernment of truth, enlarges the capacity to love and serve one’s fellows, exalts the spiritual ideals, and unifies the supreme human motives of time with the eternal plans of the indwelling Adjuster, all of which lead directly to an increased desire to do the Father’s will, thereby fostering the divine passion to find God and to be more like him.
132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.
132:2.7 Goodness is living, relative, always progressing, invariably a personal experience, and everlastingly correlated with the discernment of truth and beauty. Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart—the shadows of potential evil.
132:2.8 Until you attain Paradise levels, goodness will always be more of a quest than a possession, more of a goal than an experience of attainment. But even as you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you experience increasing satisfaction in the partial attainment of goodness. The presence of goodness and evil in the world is in itself positive proof of the existence and reality of man’s moral will, the personality, which thus identifies these values and is also able to choose between them.
132:2.9 By the time of the attainment of Paradise the ascending mortal’s capacity for identifying the self with true spirit values has become so enlarged as to result in the attainment of the perfection of the possession of the light of life. Such a perfected spirit personality becomes so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that such a righteous spirit would cast any negative shadow of potential evil when exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise. In all such spirit personalities, goodness is no longer partial, contrastive, and comparative; it has become divinely complete and spiritually replete; it approaches the purity and perfection of the Supreme.
132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.
Colter……..Talk about fallacy's , So many words , So little SAID.peace and love………………………………………..gene
Another non answer, answer.Again, fallacy of your philosophy has God being both good and evil; it would then be the will of God to commit good and evil acts.
Colter
Colter………..Lying about what i said is not right, and id did not say that it is written in the TRUE SCRIPTURES. What It says is GOD CREATES EVIL . But you counter Him and say he does not Then you falsely say i am saying God is EVIL something I never Said. You own “Philosophies” got you mind so screwed up you can”t even follow who said what it appears? You argument is with what God said Not Me , i simply quoted it. So feel free to call his word what ever yo want to, but know this you are dealing with Him not Me. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2012,09:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2012,12:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2012,09:46) you own Wills are “free” and therefore separate from God's WILL, your salvation is from your own “freewill s” and therefore it is your own salvation by your own freewill choices, You have not need of a God you are a God unto yourselves, and follow and worship you own Captivated WILLS. IMO
Gene,Having our own free will has NOTHING to do with our being able to save ourselves.
I have the free will to either follow my God or not to follow Him. It is HE who has the choice whether or not to save me.
These are the kinds of arguments that you always use, Gene. You say pre-existers work to separate Jesus from mankind by saying he was different than us. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? Who ever said Jesus had to be exactly like us in every way for us to follow him?
After all, God is different from us – are we unable to follow Him?What I'm saying is that the arguments you use against Satan being real, preexistence, and free will don't even make sense.
For example, how in the world would me having the free will to obey my God equate with me saving my own soul?
It just makes no sense.
Mike…..On the one hand you say, Having our own Free Will has nothing to do with Saving you and then on the other Hand you say You have a “FREEWILL” to either follow your God or not to follow him right> So in whose hand is you salvation really (IN) is it not your own hand by “YOUR” Choice to Follow GOD through your OWN so-called “FREEWILL” . That make you your own savior by you own “freewill” Choice. But what does scripture say?
8 “Remember the instruction you gave your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.’Gene, does this say God will save everyone, no matter what they choose by their own free will to do? Or does it say, “If you CHOOSE to be unfaithful, then BAD will happen to you, but if you CHOOSE to return to God, then GOOD will happen to you? WHO makes that choice, Gene?
Exodus 20:12
“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
How about this one? Does is say you will live long in the land the LORD is giving you WHETHER OR NOT you honor your parents? Or does it say that if we CHOOSE to obey God and honor our parents, THEN good things will happen for us?You seem to teach that our salvation has NOTHING to do with us personally, but what did Jesus teach?
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Gene, whose choice was it that YOU PERSONALLY believe in the name of God's only begotten Son? Was it YOUR personal choice to believe in Jesus? Or did someone else make that choice for you?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2012,03:08) Colter………..Lying about what i said is not right, and id did not say that it is written in the TRUE SCRIPTURES. What It says is GOD CREATES EVIL . But you counter Him and say he does not Then you falsely say i am saying God is EVIL something I never Said. You own “Philosophies” got you mind so screwed up you can”t even follow who said what it appears? You argument is with what God said Not Me , i simply quoted it. So feel free to call his word what ever yo want to, but know this you are dealing with Him not Me. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………gene
Gene,You have maintained that God creates Good spirits and evil spirits, that means he is a house divided against himself, that he has a good will and an apposing evil will.
The consequence of your philosophy has God being both Good and Evil. I apologize for implying something that you did not intend to say.
The omnipotence of Deity does not imply the power to do the nondoable. Within the time-space frame and from the intellectual reference point of mortal comprehension, even the infinite God cannot create square circles or produce evil that is inherently good. God cannot do the ungodlike thing. Such a contradiction of philosophic terms is the equivalent of nonentity and implies that nothing is thus created. A personality trait cannot at the same time be Godlike and ungodlike. Compossibility is innate in divine power. And all of this is derived from the fact that omnipotence not only creates things with a nature but also gives origin to the nature of all things and beings.UB
Colter
Jesus on “The temptation of man.”
On the evening of this same day Nathaniel asked Jesus: “Master, why do we pray that God will lead us not into temptation when we well know from your revelation of the Father that he never does such things?” Jesus answered Nathaniel:
156:5.4 “It is not strange that you ask such questions seeing that you are beginning to know the Father as I know him, and not as the early Hebrew prophets so dimly saw him. You well know how our forefathers were disposed to see God in almost everything that happened. They looked for the hand of God in all natural occurrences and in every unusual episode of human experience. They connected God with both good and evil. They thought he softened the heart of Moses and hardened the heart of Pharaoh. When man had a strong urge to do something, good or evil, he was in the habit of accounting for these unusual emotions by remarking: `The Lord spoke to me saying, do thus and so, or go here and there.’ Accordingly, since men so often and so violently ran into temptation, it became the habit of our forefathers to believe that God led them thither for testing, punishing, or strengthening. But you, indeed, now know better. You know that men are all too often led into temptation by the urge of their own selfishness and by the impulses of their animal natures. When you are in this way tempted, I admonish you that, while you recognize temptation honestly and sincerely for just what it is, you intelligently redirect the energies of spirit, mind, and body, which are seeking expression, into higher channels and toward more idealistic goals. In this way may you transform your temptations into the highest types of uplifting mortal ministry while you almost wholly avoid these wasteful and weakening conflicts between the animal and spiritual natures.
156:5.5 “But let me warn you against the folly of undertaking to surmount temptation by the effort of supplanting one desire by another and supposedly superior desire through the mere force of the human will. If you would be truly triumphant over the temptations of the lesser and lower nature, you must come to that place of spiritual advantage where you have really and truly developed an actual interest in, and love for, those higher and more idealistic forms of conduct which your mind is desirous of substituting for these lower and less idealistic habits of behavior that you recognize as temptation. You will in this way be delivered through spiritual transformation rather than be increasingly overburdened with the deceptive suppression of mortal desires. The old and the inferior will be forgotten in the love for the new and the superior. Beauty is always triumphant over ugliness in the hearts of all who are illuminated by the love of truth. There is mighty power in the expulsive energy of a new and sincere spiritual affection. And again I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good.”UB
Colter
Quote (Colter @ July 22 2012,04:01) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2012,03:08) Colter………..Lying about what i said is not right, and id did not say that it is written in the TRUE SCRIPTURES. What It says is GOD CREATES EVIL . But you counter Him and say he does not Then you falsely say i am saying God is EVIL something I never Said. You own “Philosophies” got you mind so screwed up you can”t even follow who said what it appears? You argument is with what God said Not Me , i simply quoted it. So feel free to call his word what ever yo want to, but know this you are dealing with Him not Me. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………gene
Gene,You have maintained that God creates Good spirits and evil spirits, that means he is a house divided against himself, that he has a good will and an apposing evil will.
The consequence of your philosophy has God being both Good and Evil. I apologize for implying something that you did not intend to say.
The omnipotence of Deity does not imply the power to do the nondoable. Within the time-space frame and from the intellectual reference point of mortal comprehension, even the infinite God cannot create square circles or produce evil that is inherently good. God cannot do the ungodlike thing. Such a contradiction of philosophic terms is the equivalent of nonentity and implies that nothing is thus created. A personality trait cannot at the same time be Godlike and ungodlike. Compossibility is innate in divine power. And all of this is derived from the fact that omnipotence not only creates things with a nature but also gives origin to the nature of all things and beings.UB
Colter
Colter.If God can only do good,and can not do evil;
If God can only created the day and can not create the night;
than he is not all mighty,not all things are possible to him.Here again; you must know your God; the true God.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
I don't think it's a matter of what God CAN do, but what He WILL do. For example, it is said that God “cannot lie”. Well of course God has the ability to lie if He wanted to. “Cannot lie” really means “won't lie”, IMO. So God CAN create evil, but WILL He?
Gene quoted Isaiah 45:7, which in some translations say God creates evil. But the word translated in the KJV as “evil” is translated as “calamity” in the the NET and NASB. It is translated as “woe”, “distress”, “disaster”, “catastrophe”, and “hard times” in various other Bibles.
I tend to agree with Colter on this one that God Almighty didn't create evil, although He did create beings with free wills, some of whom do evil.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 22 2012,08:15) Wakeup, I don't think it's a matter of what God CAN do, but what He WILL do. For example, it is said that God “cannot lie”. Well of course God has the ability to lie if He wanted to. “Cannot lie” really means “won't lie”, IMO. So God CAN create evil, but WILL He?
Gene quoted Isaiah 45:7, which in some translations say God creates evil. But the word translated in the KJV as “evil” is translated as “calamity” in the the NET and NASB. It is translated as “woe”, “distress”, “disaster”, “catastrophe”, and “hard times” in various other Bibles.
I tend to agree with Colter on this one that God Almighty didn't create evil, although He did create beings with free wills, some of whom do evil.
MikeB.Good question:
Who created satan? Did not God?
He knew lucifer the mighty cherub was going to create havoc on earth didnt he, or did he not?
Is God not in control of everything? Is he not the CEO, as we say it? Is not the chief responsible of the business?God could have stopped all evil ,but he did not,so who is responsible of all; evil and good? GOD,ALL IS GOD.
The question that must be answered is; why?
We must understand all prophesies to know the answer.
This will give us understanding of Gods ways of doing things.he said'' my ways are not your ways; my thoughts are not your thoughts. Just as heaven is higher than the earth,so are my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Here is another question: why must God create man in the FLESH;when he could create something more beautiful,like angels? Why go backwards?
wakeup.
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