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Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 08 2005,16:42) Cubes, It is obvious that we disagree. (By the way, see John 1:6 for example of a man being “sent” by God who did not pre-exist – unless you believe that John the Baptist pre-existed.) However, I don't understand how you go through such pains to show that you believe that Yeshua is “a god”, yet you have no comment on the fact that that makes your faith dependent on two gods, (in opposition to all of scripture). Why do you think that Paul says that for him there is one God? Do you think that he suddenly forgot that Yeshua is “a god” too? Why do you think that there is no statement of belief in scripture that acknowledges more than one god? That's the one thing that I don't understand about your beliefs.
Other than that, I am sure that you are sincere in your desire to know and understand scripture, and I hope that your sincere searching is blessed by the one God of our faith.
Hi WIT,We may disagree and that is alright… We've got enough work cut out for us holding our ground in an unbelieving world… I feel ok with the posts I have made as representing my belief in the one True God, YHWH, and his Son, Christ Jesus.
Again, thanks for the responses to my questions.
Quote (Cubes @ June 08 2005,23:03) Deleted duplicate post.
Dear friends,Just a stone in the bush. YHWH never was the name of the Almighty. The title of Lord is also not a name of God. God Himself came to make known His name:- Jesus Christ or Emanuel as we read in the New Testament. 72 men went back to Alexandria to find out what the Almighty’s name was. They came up with the Tetragrammaton and the Canaanite name YHWE witch means Lord. The Bible warns us as follows:- Jer.44:26 “Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.” This name YHWH consist of 4 consonants and it should be 5 ‘YH(SH)WH’. The SH is the letter shin in Hebrew. Now you can pronounce it as YAHASH(A)WAH . Jesus is also called YAHASHAWAH. This is the true pronunciation.
Now we read in Isa.9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
This Child is the body of God. This child is the Almighty God of the Old Testament. When the Almighty said to his angels in Gen.1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” He was referring to Himself in Body (Jesus Christ)
Isa.35:4 “Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.” Also read Mal. 3:1 “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”To proof that this God was Jesus:- John.20:28-29 “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” And to end my story. 1Cor.10:9 “Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.”
Hi WIT,
” No one has seen God at any time;the only begotten God who is at the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him”
The second word for “God” is the same as the first, “theos”, which can mean God, god, godly, godlike. 3 other bibles translate it as “God” in the reference list so it is from the original manuscripts. Jesus is not his own Father as he is begotten of God, but he has his own divine nature as shown in Phil 2 and is a “god” as a son of God.Quote From Nick:
” No one has seen God at any time;the only begotten God who is at the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him”
The second word for “God” is the same as the first, “theos”, which can mean God, god, godly, godlike. 3 other bibles translate it as “God” in the reference list so it is from the original manuscripts. Jesus is not his own Father as he is begotten of God, but he has his own divine nature as shown in Phil 2 and is a “god” as a son of God.Hmmmm
John 1:18 No one has seen (5758) God at any time . The only begotten Son , who is (5752) in the bosom of the Father , He has declared (5662) Him. (NKJV)
John 1:18 No man hath seen (5758) God at any time ; the only begotten Son , which is (5752) in the bosom of the Father , he hath declared (5662) him. (AV)
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known. (RSV)
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, *he* hath declared him. (DBY)
John 1:18 No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father’s bosom—He has made Him known. (WEY)
Hi RR,
And I could quote those that read the way of the NASB but I will instead research the manuscripts.ps
A footnote in my [catholic]NAB says some manuscripts read
“God, the only Son”
and others
” the Son, the only one”
and others
” the only Son”
So there is manuscript variation explaining the different choices used in translation.Hi,
2Cor 4.3
” And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ,so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of CHRIST, WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD”So Christ is not that God but THE IMAGE of that God and was filled with the Spirit of that God. If Christ is the image of God Himself then he is more than any other man. We are made “IN THE IMAGE OF GOD” [gen 1.27]but we are not THE IMAGE of that God. Would God make man IN His image beore THE IMAGE was created? No and that is why all men were created through the image of God -the Son of God- begotten in the beginning.
The gospel is about THE GLORY of Christ. It is not the glory of God in him but his own glory as the Son of God. Those who do not “see” the glory of Christ, the Son of God, with their minds are those who do not yet have the mind of Christ. It is those who are as yet still lost.
wow! over 180 pages of discussion ont he trinity… must be apretty hot topic here…. pardon me if I do not read all those pages… just not feasible really… so some of you long timers here may have to answer with stuff you have already said… so I apologize upfront for asking that you do that…
Nick, in your last post I think you alluded to the idea that Christ, being “begotten”, is therefore not the eternal son of God, but is rather a created being… is that right?
Secondly, it seems that stating that the Gospel is the glory of Christ, and not of or to the exclusion of God, is arbitrary…. Paul says
Rom 5:1-2 ESV since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (2) Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.in the Gospel, we are welcomed into the Kingdom, to the glory of God;
Rom 15:7 ESV Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.”And
2Co 4:13-15 ESV Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believed, and so I spoke,” we also believe, and so we also speak, (14) knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. (15) For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.Confessing Jesus as Lord is the Gospel, as Paul tells us in Romans 10:9, for in so confessing, one is saved… and this confession is to the glory of God;
Phi 2:9-11 ESV Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, (10) so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (11) and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.In fact, the Bible says that ALL THINGS pertain to the Glory of God, as Eph chapter 1 says… Paul speaks of God the Father choosing His people, His elect, from before the foundation of the world, with this passage culminating in a doxology stating Eph 1:11 ESV In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”
Besides all this biblical evidence in support of salvation being about the glory of God, given the inseperable link between the Son, Father and Holy Spirit… to say that something is to the glory of one member of the Trintiy to the exclusion of the others is, well, impossible…
blessings
Welcome,
Where is this trinity written? Is God a trinity are you saying?
Rev3.12
” He who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God,and he will not go out from it anymore, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which come out of heaven from my God, and my new name”Is this the God you mean?
But this God is the God of Jesus.And did you not say Jesus was part of this God so how come he calls this God his God? Perhaps you understand and can explain this to us?
The glory of the Son of God is separate from the Father's glory just as the Son has life in himself and is separate from the Father. That is why their unity is so wonderful-it is chosen. All his work is for the Glory of God, his Father.
The Son of God is begotten from God as the image of God in the beginning. He is the firstborn in all things, including creation but all creation came through him so that does say he preceded all things. He is also described as “the beginning of the creation of God” in Rev 3.14. If by eternal you are being retrospective all we know is that he was begotten from God, the original, before time.
The book of Romans, like all the books of the apostles, was written to the saved and not the unsaved as Rom 1.7. So the verse in Romans 10 does not override the instruction of Jesus to be born again of water and the Spirit. It does not describe the means of salvation. Romans is written primarily to those of Jewish origins and that is why the Law features so prominently as the Law applies only to them.So Romans 10 has to be looked at in this context as showing the Jews in retrospect how the NT is a fulfillment of the OT. Faith and intellectual assent has never been enough as James 2.19 shows.Hi Nick,
Thought I'd share this with regards to the Gospel of God, which is the gospel of Christ I believe, wherein God reveals his Son and his plan for our salvation. So Jesus was sent by the Father to declare that gospel as we know:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
2Cr 11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?1Th 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
1Th 2:8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.
1Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Yes cubes,
Everything the Son did was for the glory of the Father. But those who knew him also said this about him and his own glory. He also was filled with the Spirit of God.
Jn 1.14
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth”Hi guys,
Haven't been here for a while. I have been extremly busy and an ex-coworker and friend of mine is dying of cancer. He has approximately 1 month of life left according to doctors and he is sick and very tired. He is only 40 years old and has a wife and a young child. Please pray for this man, his name is David. He doesn't believe in the resurrection (life after death).
I haven't read all the posts since I last visited, but I can see that DVD has challenged me on a few things.
1) That God's son in the OT is Israel, not Christ.
Leave me with that one so I can find out if that is true. Israel could well be referred to God's son, I just need to check it out. Of course that doesn't prove that Christ existed or not before his birth as a man. I get the feeling that you are trying to rub this one in as salt into a wound. But I am open to learning from anyone as I said earlier.2) I noticed that WIT said on multiple occassions that Nick teaches there are 2 gods and that is unacceptable. But scripture rightly says that there are many gods and many lords, so there are a lot more than 2. YHWH being the one God does not mean that there are not other gods (theos, elohim). It just means that he is the Original God the God whereby all (good) gods come. He is the Father of our spirits and yes we are gods too. We are his offspring so to speak.
OK it appears that the Unitarians have formed an alliance and have executed an attack of their doctrine to try and once and for all exterminate any notion (in this forum) that Christ pre-existed.
First it was the Tinitarian war and now it is the 'Attack of the Unitarians'.
I think by what has been debated in this forum that the Trinitarians were well put away by scripture. So what do I have to say about Unitarianism?
Well first of all I respect that they/you believe in one God YHWH. This much we have in common and it is the first commandment to worship and believe in this one God. But even Moslems believe in one God and demons also for that matter. However this truth is a pillar of true faith, if not part of the foundation. Where I presently differ with Unitarians is on the son of God. Unitarians say that he did not exist previous to his birth even though many scriptures seem to say otherwise. They appear to reason there way out of each scripture but their arguments are indeed more compelling compared to what Trinitarians have offered as evidence for their doctrine. Unitarians certainly delve more into scripture and checkout the meanings of certain words to prove their points.
Of course this doesn't mean that they are right, for surely a man can believe in a lie and make scriptures fall the way of his belief by taking all the possible meanings of a word and choosing the one that is closest to his belief even if other scriptures do not use it in the same way. But before I delve deeper into what they believe I think it appropriate to first of all ask the following question:
“Does it really matter if a man believes in Christ's pre-existence or not?” After all if we believe that God is YHWH and Yeshua his son, and that the son came into the world and died for our sins and then was resurrected to the highest place in heaven, then do we not both believe in the gospel and the truth? Do the finer details of Christ's existence really matter that much?
I am not really too sure of the answer, but one thing that stands out to me now is the following:
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, [ Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,2 John 1:7
Many decievers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.Now taken together we can see that the Word became flesh and we can also see that Jesus came in the flesh. Surely the first thing that stands out is that Jesus must be the Word and we also know that the Word was WITH God in the beginning. Yeshua is even called the Word of God in Revelation 19:13.
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
But how important is it to believe that Jesus is the Word that was WITH God? Well that I do not know too well, but what worries me about those who do not believe that, is what 2 John 1:7 says:
Many decievers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Surely if we believe that Yeshua wasn't the Word that was WITH God and was first given life through Mary and not before, then how can one truly believe that Jesus came in the flesh? Because it seems to me that what they/you are advocating is that the Word that was WITH God is only an attribute of God and not an external expression or image. Then they/you must conclude that this attribute became flesh and that is who and what Yeshua is. But the scripture says that we must believe that Yeshua came in the flesh, not an attribute of God turned into flesh. Yeshua is a person/image, that is why his name was used, Yeshua the person is/was not an attribute inside God by reason that he has a name different from God, although from it. Rather the Word was WITH God and and HE came in the flesh.
If we believe that the Word was with God and the Word came from God, then do we believe that the Word was divine? If we believe that the Word was an attribute of God only and was expressed externally for the first time as Yeshua the man, then one must believe that Yeshua is a man only (in nature), and is resurrected as a Spiritual being later.
So was he a divine being who partook of human nature and back again to the glory he had before, or is he a human being who is glorified to perhaps be divine or at least a spiritual being of great power?
Divine or not, this is the real question.
What do others think? Is Unitarianism an antichrist doctrine, or not?
Quote (epistemaniac @ June 12 2005,13:05) wow! over 180 pages of discussion ont he trinity… must be apretty hot topic here…. pardon me if I do not read all those pages… just not feasible really…
Hi epistemaniac,The main points that have been defended in this forum can be found here in condensed form.
thanks t8… I had already begun to have a look at that document, unfortuantely I did not get very far before I became a bit disgusted with the faulty reasoning and improper use of the Scriptures…. but I think I will continue to go through it… it s a good exercise… going through what I have thus far reminds me of time I spent going through the atrocious tract put out by the Watchtower called “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” The tract is filled with all kinds of nonsense, but, as I mentioned, going through something like that, along with what appears to be going on in the document you link to, is just good practice….
blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ June 12 2005,20:12) thanks t8… I had already begun to have a look at that document, unfortuantely I did not get very far before I became a bit disgusted with the faulty reasoning and improper use of the Scriptures…. but I think I will continue to go through it… it s a good exercise… going through what I have thus far reminds me of time I spent going through the atrocious tract put out by the Watchtower called “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” The tract is filled with all kinds of nonsense, but, as I mentioned, going through something like that, along with what appears to be going on in the document you link to, is just good practice…. blessings
faulty reasoning?I'm all ears.
We know that even the gospel is non-sense to those who are perishing. Nonsense can also mean that one has no understanding of it.
Hi E,
Is Jesus the Son of God?
Or is he God Himself.Or is he part of God Himself?
He said he is the Son of God.Is there any Son that remains part of his Father? After all all Father/Son family relationships date back to this one[Eph 3.14]?Is Jesus then not the only begotten Son of God as scripture claims but still part of that God as trinity? Scripture says God is the Father and God of Jesus Christ and the source of His Spirit and not a committee.
Eph 1.17
“.that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him”He calls God his Father. Is he his own Father if they are of the same substance?
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