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Hi,Ed,
These passage make it very plain that Christ is God and therefore has existed eternally.
And I can cite additional ones as well.
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(1) Matthew 1:23: “…call him Immanuel, which means God with us.”
….I Tim. 3:16: “God was manifested in the flesh.”
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(2) 2Pr. 1:1: “…by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”Hi Hoghead1,
Let’s examine these verses you cite
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1) Matthew 1:23 and 1Tim. 3:16 both compare to what it says in 2 Cor 5:19:
….[color=blue]”God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself”[/color]
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2) Compare whats in 2Peter 1:1 to what Thomas said:
“Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into
the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:25)
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Afterword he said (John 20:28):
“My Lord and my God.”
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The question presents itself: “Why did Thomas say that?” was he saying Jesus was God?
Not at all. He was instead confirming what Jesus had said earlier (John 14:11)
“Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
or else believe me for the very works’ sake.”
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Thomas finally believed the works of God;
believing that God was in Christ as Jesus had declared in John 14:11.
2Peter 1:1 is merely repeating what Thomas said: – declaring the father AND the son
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Peter believed the works of God even before Thomas did.
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God bless
Ed JHi, Ed,
2 Cor. 5:19 is a major passage Trinitarians appeal to. In that you missed this point her and in another post, that tells me you are not familiar with Trinitarian doctrines.
Hi Hoghead1,
Apparently your ears are closed to what I just said
in the preceding post. I guess I’ll just wait then.____________
God bless
Ed JWhat scripture are you going to use as the best example of the Trinity?
I’ve already presented a number of biblical passages both to you and some other members here.
Hi, Ed,
Passages such as Jn. 14:10-11 and also Jn. 14:20 are those used to support the Trinity, however. You would know tht, had you reread anything on the doctrines and rationale for the Trinity.
Hi T8,
You can address these first:
(he’s not open what I just said)John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words
that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
I guess John 14:20 then means we become part of “The Trinity” too
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God bless
Ed JHoghead,
The Son of God is eternal if you are speaking of the logos, the word that comes out God mouth. The logos incarnated in the human being Jesus Christ. The logos is not a being but rather the very word God framed the ages through.
Modern Christianity is thwarted by those who invented teachings based on the writing of a Jew to Jews but lacked or did not correctly use knowledge of their culture at the time the letter was written. As a result of that and the lack of the guidance of the Spirit their teachings are flawed. One that humbles themselves and learns to test the spirit of their doctrine will see those flaws.
I agree Gene. Yes, there are too many people that rely on their educational credentials, but that is not how scripture works. Its meaning is revealed to those who hear the voice of the shepherd and humility not pride is the way to see. But I am giving Hoghead ample chance to show the scriptures and processes that lead to his understanding. He accused me of not delving deep into the doctrine and scripture, so I have invited him to do this very thing with me. So far he hasn’t taken up the offer but it is early days. It seems he doesn’t want an in depth debate between myself and him which allows focus and depth so will engage with him here. If he doesn’t provide me with a smoking gun scripture for the Trinity, then I will choose one myself from what he has already quoted. In fact I might do that to get started anyway. That one that kerwin quotes above my post might be a good place to start.
How silly is hoghead to assume to come here and educate us ignoramuses just so he can talk theology! oh my gosh I called him silly,so I might be on my way to death. But at least i didn’t call him a fool like Jesus called the Pharisees.
Hoghead,
“My point stands about pride and arrogance dominating the self-appointed false prophets who seek to vilify the Christian religion”
And why as a universalist should this make any real difference at all,being as we’re all saved? is it not all just semantics? or are you really trying to earn some real brownie points with the Trinity for the afterlife?
Sorry, no takers here. First, you affirm predestination, which is neither a rational teaching nor a biblical one. Secondly, you overlook biblical passages that speak of Christ as the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning creation and its ultimate culmination.
Also, I don’t have the time to look at material on youtube, which may or may not be solid material, to start with. My advice is skip all that junk. Read major historical works, such as Augustine’s “De Trinitate.”
What? predestination is not biblical teaching? Have you ever even read the bible or Augustine hoghead? Augustine clearly believed in predestination and not your Pelagian freewill. Have you ever read about that?” You’ve pulled the wool over your own eyes but not over mine . The bible is full of God’s sovereignty and predestination yet you deny it all based on what? a verse from 1John which says “God is love” yet that very book condemns people and doesn’t teach universalism. Oh not many believers want to believe what the bible really says and I don’t either but I won’t deny what it actually says.
HI, all those lead by the spirit of God will not follow a false shepherd, because they know the sound of the true sheppard, and will not follow a false trinitarian teacher no matter how highely he thinks of himself. We have a teacher, just as Jesus said, “you shall “all’be taught by God. God the Father through his spirit of truth teaches us to reconize the sound of truth, and all how have his spirit in them
are led by him and are Sons of GOD “NOW”, just as the apostle John said , 1 John 3:1-2 , also Paul in Rom 8:14, says clearly, “for as many as are lead by the Spirit of GOD “are” sons of God. Also Gal 4:6, Phil 2:15.No one should come here trying elevating him or herself as above us, as some self proclaimed great teacher of “truth”, by what they suppose as their great educational understanding, when in fact they haven’t even the basic understandings of what scriptures “specificly” and “clearly” say. Trust in GOD and Jesus not these “egotistical” self professing, so-called experts, who actually deny the truth and God’s power to teach even the simple the truth.
It’s every pleasing to me, how we have withstood this last attempt that came here, to force the false teachings of the Trinity on us, and only proves all the scriptures listed above, that we are the Sons of GOD, taught by GOD, and are also being kept by him in the truth.
peace and love to you all and yours. …….gene
T8….True, and they missed everything JESUS was saying, it went right over their egotistical heads. They were also the self professed wise, but were in fact fools. God has indeed chosen the simple to confound the so-called wise, it’s the same today as it was then, but those led by the spirit of the LIVING GOD, will not follow these self-professed wantabees, because they know the sound of the true sheppard, and will not follow a false sheppard no matter how well deguised they are. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
t8 and Gene,
Not all of them, as Paul was bot a Pharisee and educated. Educated people have more challenge because they have been indoctrinated in the mores of our corrupt society. Of course the same seems to have been true during Jesus’ mortality as he stated it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that rich man to inherit the reign of God.
I agree kerwin. I am not bagging education of course, but just saying that it alone is not enough. The world thinks education is the answer to everything. You must have the right mind to interpret knowledge and truth correctly. Many intelligent academics are deceived and believe in fables. It is said that Luke the writer of Luke and Acts was a doctor. If he was indeed the author, he wrote more of the New Testament than Paul. In this case his education was a good thing as he passed down much scripture.
t8,
Acts and Luke were mostly written by Luke as Paul testifies of Luke accompanying him in his travels just as testified of in Acts. The writer spoke in the first person.
Dr Luke wrote more of the NT than Paul? is that so? I haven’t personally counted the verses or looked it up on the internet but just can’t quite believe it yet.
“In this case his education was a good thing as he passed down much scripture.” and what does his education have to do with it if it was really written by God or the holy Ghost himself? did he need a doctorate to “pass it down”?
kerwin….PAUL counted all that as dung that he might win christ and gain the truth of GOD. He believed his past cridentuals meet nothing, for him to brage about, remember with those cridentials he persecuted the church of GOD, he was indeed a Pharisee of Pharisees completely decieved reguarding the FAITH, and truth of God. But thanks be to GOD he repented and was given the spirit of truth and then was able to put those scriptures he studied in proper perspective.
“unless the LORD shall build the house the weary builders build in vain”.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Gene,
Paul also stated that five words with understanding is worth a multitude without so he was certainly not against education itself but rather against how it has continuously applied, i.e. misapplied, by many.
kerwin….Yes i do believe Paul was well educated for his day. But Without the Spirit of truth, education with regards to the FAITH means nothing. Most of the true apostles were not well educated, but they spoke sound truths that even the most educated could not understand, this is even true today. Like Paul said though i have “all” knowledge and have not love, it prophets me nothing. I am not against education, but it can become a stumbling block.
Pro 3:5-7…Trust in the LORD with “all” your heart, and lean not unto your “own understanding”. 6, in all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths, 7, Be not wise in thine “own eyes: fear the LORD, an depart from evil, We are told.
peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Gene,
I am not actually not sure how many of the Apostles were educated in that day but it may well have been more that you thing for literacy was prized among the Jews men, and possibly women, of that tome for by it one could read the writings, if only in the synagogue.
John, a fisherman, may have read Philo’s works as the two voice similar ideas about the logos.
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