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It amazes me how many say the Trinity is a must-have when it is nowhere mentioned in scripture. This is the result of centuries of conditioning through the denominational structure.
I’d suggest you do a more careful reading of the pre-Nicene fathers.
Hoghead. Let’s take Tatian’s quote. He clearly shows what he believes to be the ancient origin of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now if he also believed the Trinity Doctrine, then Tatian clearly was a double minded man and by extension of that, an unstable man.
And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.
HI again, t8,
Again, I suggest you do a better job of reading teh pre-Nicene fathers. Take Irenaeus. What he actually says is that the Spirit and Son are the two hands of God, two modes of activity by which God is present. Hence, he writes, ” It is the Word of God, the Son of God, Jesus Christ Our lord, by whom all things were made…” If anything, Irenaeus is striving to fight Gnosticism , which saw a hierarchy of divine beings, with Christ and the Spirit and even the cerator God as being way down the totem pole.
Hoghead. What you just wrote is not the Trinity or make Jesus God. Yes we can all be tools in the hands of our maker. Even Satan is used of God and he is not YHWH.
Yes, God made all things through him (the son of God). But that doesn’t make him God. At most we are images of God that he uses for his own will. We were made in God’s image and Jesus is the image of that invisible God. An image is not the original is it? Our life and spirit comes from God, but we are our own soul.
I would hope that God considers me a useful tool in his hand to help accomplish his mission. And if that were true, then would that make me God? Even if I was considered a fingernail, that doesn’t make me God. No, a son of God is what it would make me. Another being or person that is not God, but certainly one with him in unity to accomplish his purposes.
Hi again, t8,
I’m a little puzzled about where you want to go here. You said you wanted to go directly to Scripture, avoid all middle men. Then you want to start with Tatian. If you have read Tatian, then you well know that he is noted for presenting largely philosophical arguments with little reference to Scripture. If anything, he seems to have composed his own version of teh Bible, his “Harmony,” which leaves out any reference to the Incarnation or the humanity of Christ, probably due to his gnostic tendencies. Also, as you should be aware, he later became a gnostic and was then denounced as a heretic. Earlier, however, as your above quote indicates, he held that the Logos is the eternal Reason of the Father and the creator of the world. You can’t get more God than that. So her, he is being a Trinitarian to the hilt.
HI, t8,
The prologue to Jn, for example, sys that the Word is God, not just some image of God. In the Bible, the Word is the creator of all things. Now, unless you are a gnostic and believe that a lesser god or evil god, way down the totem pole, created the world, the Bible is making it very clear that Word is ontologically God.
Hi, t8,
The Bible makes it clear that the Logos or Word is God, is God’s Reason. Certainly God’s Reason is God. As far as tools per se go, yes, the tool and the tool user are ontologically one. I am my hands, they are me, for example. I play French horn. The horn is my tool. When I play well and right, the horn is ontologically part of me, jus like my hands or voice box.
I’m a little puzzled about where you want to go here. You said you wanted to go directly to Scripture, avoid all middle men.
Certainly I want to use the testimony of scripture. But I never ruled out anything else. I have no problem with quoting others whether ancient or modern. I have no problem using scientific discoveries. But I will use scripture as the template to see what doesn’t fit.
Also, I didn’t pull out these quotes from Tatian etc for nothing, it was merely a response to your idea or inference that these Fathers taught and believed the Trinity. I didn’t agree, so I decided to quote some of their writings. I haven’t read everything they have ever written, but I have read some of their writings and found that as the decades and centuries rolled by, the Trinity Doctrine started to develop and mature. But the closer you get to Christ (back in time) the more you depart the Trinity and head toward God being the Father and Jesus being the Word.
When I play well and right, the horn is ontologically part of me, jus like my hands or voice box.
If a commander has a right-hand man, then he is a tool in his hands, but he is not the same person. A horn is not a person so it can be an extension of yourself, even though it is not part of you. If I ride a bike or drive a car, it can become part of me in the sense that my brain says go left and the machine obeys just the same as if I said that when I was walking using my own legs. However, the car or bike is not me. If the bike was parked down the road, does a person say, “Oh hi t8”. Even if my own leg was amputated, does a doctor then talk to the leg as if it was me?
Likewise, Jesus is at God’s right-hand side. God is not a son, but God has a son. And the son is obedient to God and does God’s will and only God’s will. The son does not do his own will if it is contrary to God’s will. We should be like that too, but just like Jesus, we are not God himself. We are images of that God at most and we may partake in God’s nature.
We are promised in scripture that we will receive a body like his (Jesus). He calls us brethren/brothers, but to God, we are children or sons. Even Jesus has the status of son. God is the Father. To God we are his children. So Jesus we are his brothers.
hi, t8,
Alright, let’s roll with the tool example, though this isn’t exactly the way the Bible depicts Christ’s relationship to God. Yes, when leg is amputated, that still is part of me. Many persons report they can still feel the presence of their leg. Truth is, we are all omnipresent, though in a very limited sense of the term. Say8ing that any object is precisely right here or there and no place else is the fallacy of simple location. There is no such thing in reality. Everything is live a wave. My scent or stink, which is definitely part of me, will remain in the woods from several days after I have run through there. That’s how dogs find you. You cannot do anything, let alone commit a crime, without leaving part of yourself there. When General Lee found out Stonewall Jackson was dead, he said it felt like his right arm had been cut off. Yes, Lee and Jackson were ontologically one, fused together. You could not tell where one ended and the other began. As I suggested earlier, and probably in a post you merely skimmed, that reality is relational, that we are all part of one another.
HI again, t8,
It’s a great idea to pull out the fathers. However, you have to be more honest and go into more detail about them. Tatian was initially Trinitarian, then changed his mind. Origen, who also was not Trinitarian, was later declared a heretic. In that you missed these point about Tatian tells me you were careless in your studies. If you want to be some kind of big debater on the Trinity, the first thing you need to do is to get fully educated on teh matter. You are not. Sorry, but you aren’t.
Hi hoghead,
No doubt you are an expert on the trinity theory.
But there is no trinity so what use is this knowledge?
hoghead1…..Seems no one here is an authority on the trinity but you, right? , now thats what I call, just another trinitarian copout you offer, all the while dodging so as to not answer the “specific” scriptures quoted to you. Perhaps a more fitting name for what you are saying here is hogwash1. lol.
peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
When I play well and right, the horn is ontologically part of me, jus like my hands or voice box.
If a commander has a right-hand man, then he is a tool in his hands, but he is not the same person. A horn is not a person so it can be an extension of yourself, even though it is not part of you. If I ride a bike or drive a car, it can become part of me in the sense that my brain says go left and the machine obeys just the same as if I said that when I was walking using my own legs. However, the car or bike is not me. If the bike was parked down the road, does a person say, “Oh hi t8”. Even if my own leg was amputated, does a doctor then talk to the leg as if it was me?
Likewise, Jesus is at God’s right-hand side. God is not a son, but God has a son. And the son is obedient to God and does God’s will and only God’s will. The son does not do his own will if it is contrary to God’s will. We should be like that too, but just like Jesus, we are not God himself. We are images of that God at most and we may partake in God’s nature.
We are promised in scripture that we will receive a body like his (Jesus). He calls us brethren/brothers, but to God, we are children or sons. Even Jesus has the status of son. God is the Father. To God we are his children. So Jesus we are his brothers.
Hi T8,
Well said.
_____________
God bless
Ed JWhen I play well and right, the horn is ontologically part of me, jus like my hands or voice box.
If I ride a bike or drive a car, it can become part of me in the sense that my brain says go left and the machine obeys just the same as if I said that when I was walking using my own legs. However, the car or bike is not me. If the bike was parked down the road, does a person say, “Oh hi t8”.
“Oh hi t8” …is that you?
HI, Ed,
If the bike is something you are using, one of your tools, then in a very real sense it is you parked down the road; it is you in the sense your hand would be you if it were down the road, got blown off. It’s like your toothbrush. You really can’t tell where you end and it begins. That’s why others would not want to use it. Your blood has actually seeped into it, no matter how slight that amount of blood may be, certainly your salvia, too.
HI, Ed,
The Bible does no say Jesus is a tool. That’s why I said earlier the tool example isn’t exactly I had in mind. The Bible says that Christ or the Logos is God, is God’s Reason. So yes, teh Bible is claiming Christ is ontologically God.
Hi Hoghead1,
I’m not aware of “The Bible” saying anywhere in it that Christ is God.
Can you point out exactly where in it you are getting this idea from?____________
God bless
Ed JHi Hoghead1,
John 1:1 says: “The Word” was God.
To assume “The Word” (according to you) is Christ
you would have to start with that preconceived idea.If you instead consider that “The Word” is God’ HolySpirit,
Then Christ doesn’t fit clearly into the narrative until verse 14.
“And “The Word” was made flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1:14)
And this sediment is expressed in Acts 10:38 and 2Corinthians 5:18-19___________
God bless
Ed JEDJ….Indeed the word was and is GOD, the word “IS” SPIRIT, Jesus is not spirit, the words of GOD WAS THE ANOUNTING SPIRIT (CHRISTO’S), JESUS was the human being, the “WORD” who is GOD through the “CHRISTO’S” was abiding “IN” THE “MAN” JESUS, just as scripture says, “God who in times past spoke to us “through” the prophets, has in these ladder days, spoken to us “through” a son”, But never made the Son a God “himself’, no more then it made the prophets Gods either.
I believe you as well as T8, Nick, Kerwin, Marty, and other here all know this. Our scriptural foundation is strong on this issue, but God allowes these decieved teachers to excercise and strengthen our resolves. Later we will have a whole world to teach with Jesus our lord.
ALL that believe in only one true GOD, and have his spirit of the LIVING GOD, “in” them can easely see the falsely of the trinitarian teachings, no matter how many complicated doctrines their proponents come up with. Trinitarian are a prime example of the blind leading the blind and they are all in a ditch. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
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