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Actually, Ed, for the moment anyway, I’m just not interested in expanding my knowledge. It’s been expanded enough already. I have a doctorate in theology. MY AOS is pneumatology. That means I am well-educated on the Trinity. After long years of continual input, I’m largely interested in my output, writing, continuing to publish, focusing on me, where I want to go, my writing, etc. I know this may sound terrible, but for the present, I could care less what Ehrman or any other scholar has to say. I’m interested in getting it together about what I want to say. True, I learn something new every day; but you can only take in so much before it’s time to exhale, throw your hat in the ring.
I know this may sound terrible, but for the present, I could care less what Ehrman or any other scholar has to say.
Hi Hoghead1,
Who is that?
Actually, Ed, for the moment anyway, I’m just not interested in expanding my knowledge.
OK, have it your way
Ehrman does very much affirm the deity of Christ taught in John’s gospel.Not that he personally believes it but he definitely affirms it taught there even in the I am verses besides Jn 1.
Hello, Marty,
First, I need to have a clearer understanding how you are using teh term “person.’ The Bible is not a book in metaphysics, as I have said many times already. it does not speak of teh Trinity in terms of “substance” or “persons.” These terms are exclusively the property of the later Trinitarian formulations. The term “person” can be a real problem here. It’s definition has changed radically over the years. In the early days, it denoted more of a role than a “person” in our sense of the term, that is, a full-blown, individual personality. If that is what you are thinking and doing, then yes, the Trinity can be a problem because any Trinitarian teaching that suggests there are three separate subjectivities within the Godhead automatically degenerates into tritheism or polytheism., which is wholly incompatible with Scripture, obviously. Thought of, however, in the context of one personality playing three rolls, however does work well. The Father denotes God creating. The Son, denotes God saving. The Spirit denotes God as sustaining. The woe of God is present in ech role, and each role is present in every other.
Next, the trinity is firmly rooted in the Bible, as many passages do identify Christ and the Spirit with God. Only the God that creates you can save you. Hence, Christ as Lord and Savior means that Christ is God, not some separate being aside from God. That’s why Paul calls Christ the Lord. He doesn’t two Lords, just one Lord, whom he identifies as the Christ. That’s why he says, “Jesus is Lord” (ICor. 2:3).
Also, I don’t know where you got the idea that Paul was simply saying Christ is a mere second Adam, some being apart from God. I Cor. 15:28 makes it very clear that Christ was the live-giving Spirit that brought the original Adam to life.
Also, Philip. 2:6 and Rom. 1:4, among others, make it very clear that Paul affirms the Deity of Christ.
Ed, Ehrman is a major, contemporary American biblical scholar and atheist who argues the trinity entails a corruption of Scripture.
Hi hoghead,
So to discuss this odd idea you need to travel beyond what is real and written into the realm of pure speculation.
You think God does not mind us doing this?
Hi hoghead,
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Salvation is from the wrath of God and the opportunity still exists.
You know, Nick, from what you and the freaky fundy crowd have had to say about Hell, I’m kinda of hoping I go there. That way, I can be sure I’ll be able to hobnob with a more entertaining, better-educated clientele.
Hi hoghead,
Yes that is what we expect from those who love the jostling crowds of rebellion.
But the word was written by the Spirit to give you a chance.
Hey, wait a sec, here, Nick, mon ami. Chance for what? Just what words or Bible are you talking about? The standard one I have says that I should relish being in rebellion and revolution. Every time you turn around, God is stirring things up, jarring us out of our complacency, shaking the foundation of the establishment. Look at Christ and the Pharisees. Of course, they hated Christ. He was fermenting a social revolution against their establishment. of course, teh Romans wanted him out of the way. He was fermenting revolution. Look at Moses. He was there, really shaking up the status quo, Pharaoh’s Establishment. God, according to the Bible, is the biggest status-quo shaker-upper there ever was. Yes, I enjoy being in a state of rebellion. It makes me feel close to God. That’s why I dig so much the music of the 19th-century romantic movement, the bombastic music of revolution. Ever hear the Paris Opera Orchestra play “La Marseille,” complete Hector Berlioz arrangement, with the adult and youth choirs and super-big orchestra, with augmented brass? Makes chills go up and down my spine. Ever see the scene in “Casablanca,” where the young girl gets up and sings “La Marseille” in her rebellion against the Nazis? That has been known to make big, strong men ball right in the theater. God bless revolution and its music.
Ed, Ehrman is a major, contemporary American biblical scholar and atheist who argues the trinity entails a corruption of Scripture.
Hi Hoghead1,
I choose to listen to the words of God over the words of man
“The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” (Psalms 12:6-7)Hi Hoghead1,
I generally don’t read the words of others that I cannot correspond with.
Meaning when people post others words here I don’t bother to read them.Now if they put those ideas into there own words then there’s something to discuss.
I have suggested that you read the words I actually wrote, but you refuse. So
what is there to discuss? Nothing! I will still respond to what you write.____________
God bless
Ed JHi hoghead1:
When the scripture states that Jesus is “the express image of God’s person”, it speaks of God’s character that has been made manifest to us through the life of our Lord Jesus as he obeyed God’s Word without sin even unto death on the cross. Jesus stated in John 14 that we who have seen him have seen the Father, and then he tells us:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
You say:
Thought of, however, in the context of one personality playing three rolls, however does work well. The Father denotes God creating. The Son, denotes God saving. The Spirit denotes God as sustaining. The woe of God is present in ech role, and each role is present in every other.
No, I don’t see it that way, the Father and the Son are two distinct individuals, and it is God the Father doing the works by His Spirit in each situation. Of course, we know that Jesus stated that he only did as the Father directed him.
John 12:
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
You say:
Next, the trinity is firmly rooted in the Bible, as many passages do identify Christ and the Spirit with God. Only the God that creates you can save you. Hence, Christ as Lord and Savior means that Christ is God, not some separate being aside from God. That’s why Paul calls Christ the Lord. He doesn’t two Lords, just one Lord, whom he identifies as the Christ. That’s why he says, “Jesus is Lord” (ICor. 2:3).
When Jesus began his ministry he stated:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,The word “Christ” means the anointed one. It is God the Father that anointed him and also exalted him to the position of “Lord”. He stated: Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earthAnd Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(I do not see how any of the scriptures quoted say or imply that God is a “Trinity”.)
David stated in Psalm 110:
Psalm 110King James Version (KJV)
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
You say:
Also, I don’t know where you got the idea that Paul was simply saying Christ is a mere second Adam, some being apart from God. I Cor. 15:28 makes it very clear that Christ was the live-giving Spirit that brought the original Adam to life.
1 Co 15:28 states:
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Jesus is not just a “mere” man, he is the Son of the Living God, but nevertheless he is a man, but unique in that he was not born of the sperm of man, and is “a life giving spirit” by the Word of God that he obeyed without sin even unto death of the cross. It is through this Word that we as born again believers are being made in his image, and have the promise of eternal life.
Love in Christ,
Martyhoghead……JESUS said that a person who believes could do “greater works thenhe did right? SO does would that make that person a part of you trinue GOD GROUP ? After all Jesus did say he would do greater works then he did. YOUR trinitarin theology exclusives and limits GOD, who by the way “IS” spirit to a compact grouping of three “beings” ,no such concept is taught in our scriptures.
SCRIPTURES tell us that God himself “IS” spirit, so that alone should tell you GOD wh “is” spirit, is two parts of you trinutarian consept, so if we take God and his spirit as one and the same being, then we would have left a dual-core of just Jesus and GOD alone.
ANOTHER point is that you may not understand is hat JESUS IS NOT, christo’s himself, but the “christo’s” was that “anointing’ which was GOD THE FATHER WHO IS SPIRIT was “IN” him. you mix up the word JESUS a human being, as himself being the anointing which was upon him , but scripture say that GOD was “in” him reconciling the world unto “himself”, so it was God who is spirit and by his spirit was working in and through the MAN Jesus. None of that process ever made Jesus a GOD himself. No more then God speaking through the prophests ever made them GOD’S.
Here is something that might help you, tell me this who was the one “actually” speaking here, “destory this “temple” and in three day “I” shall raise it up.”, who was the “I” speaking in first person there, was it JESUS OR GOD the father speaking through him. I say it was GOD the Father first person speaking through Jesus’ mouth, why, because scriptures tells us that it was GOD WHO RAISED Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise himself from the GRAVE. Not only that but scripture also say this, that GOD spoke to us through the prophets in time past has in the latter days spoken to us “through” a son”. who was speaking it say GOD WAS, it makes no difference who God speaks through it atill the one GOD speaking and none of that ever made tHe one GOD was speaking through a GOD.
Now it also say this, “if the spirit that raised the anointed Jesus from the dead dwell in you he (GOD) will “also” will quicken your mortal (dead) bodies”. why the word “also” is it not because that is exactly what happened to the man Jesus?.
There are so many scriptures that completely deny a “triune’ godhead, of anykind. but an established false tridition can be hard to overcome and you seem to be a prime example to us of that. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi hoghead,
There is no trinity or the Father would have told us in the scriptures.
Perhaps you think you are one step ahead of God?
Hello Hoghead,
You say” the Trinity can be a problem because any Trinitarian teaching that suggests there are three separate subjectivities within the Godhead automatically degenerates into tritheism or polytheism., which is wholly incompatible with Scripture, obviously.” which is what trinitarianism actually does say. ” Thought of, however, in the context of one personality playing three roles, however does work well” which is what modalism says.
Trinitarainism says three persons in one God, while modalism says One God/person in three personalities or modes. Modalism nearly became the official doctrine of the Catholic church and some of the early popes were modalists.
So if you ask when Jesus prayed to the Father in the gospels was he actually praying to himself? The Trinitarian says no,the modalist says yes.
Three persons in one essence or being,or one essence,being,or person in three personalities/modes.
Even Augustine in his defense of the trinity used weak examples that were clearly modalist too since in his time he was fighting Arians.
The trinity doctrine as taught by both Catholics and protestants is completely illogical which is why it’s a mystery or revelation accepted by faith.
Trinitarianism can also be thought of as role playing if originally there were three persons who were all the same and they decided amongst themselves which role they would play in the role of creation and salvation which many trins do actually teach.
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