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Yes CF I do love Jesus and tell him and thank Him daily, and I will worship him as the people and angels do in Revelation 5. He alone is worthy as the Lamb who has paid the price for my salvation and given me life eternal, brought be back into union with the Father and we know that every knee will bow and declare that He is Lord. So why wait till then, I may as well do it now cause without his sacrifice I am nothing. What an awesome redemption he has wrought, what an incredible sacrifice.
WIT
Who was God speaking of in Creation when he said, let US make man in our image. I would be interested to know what you think on that concept.
Have a great day
Aritzan007,
Another good question. It is obvious that you are truly seeking.
To be perfectly honest, the best answer I can give you is that I don't know because the text does not say. Any answer that I give you – (any answer that anyone gives you) – would be sheer speculation, as the text does not spell it out with any certainty.
Some speculation:
Could this be a reference to the Trinity? Certainly, you can read that into the text if you so desire, but since I don't see the Trinity concept of God spelled out anywhere in scripture, (i.e. there is no verse or passage anywhere in scripture that defines God as three in one), and since I see a definite distinction between God and Yeshua throughout scripture, I don't think that this is the case.
Could this be a “royal we” reference like kings and queens of all generations have used? It is possible, but since I don't see that kind of language used by God very much in scripture, I don't think it's likely.
Could this be God speaking to His heavenly court, the angels? I personally believe that this is one of two possible answers.
Could this be God speaking to all of creation as He appears to be doing in part in some of the previous verses, (e.g. “let the earth bring forth…”, “let the waters abound…”, etc)? I personally believe that this is the other possibility that reasonably fits the passage.
However, all of what I have suggested, (including the answers that I have rejected), are mere speculation. Unless you approach the passage with a certain bias already in mind, there is no way to answer your question definitively.
Oh, another possibility which I am sure will be suggested is that this is God talking to “the Word”, but since the concept of a pre-existent Messiah violates the promise that Messiah would be the offspring of David, (as opposed to his creator/father), I don't see this as a possibility either. (See page 169 for further comments from me on pre-existence.)
By the way, one thing that is clear throughout the passage is that it is God who is doing the work.
Quote Genesis 2:2
“And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 04 2005,18:34) Aritzan007, Another good question. It is obvious that you are truly seeking.
To be perfectly honest, the best answer I can give you is that I don't know because the text does not say. Any answer that I give you – (any answer that anyone gives you) – would be sheer speculation, as the text does not spell it out with any certainty.
Some speculation:
Could this be a reference to the Trinity? Certainly, you can read that into the text if you so desire, but since I don't see the Trinity concept of God spelled out anywhere in scripture, (i.e. there is no verse or passage anywhere in scripture that defines God as three in one), and since I see a definite distinction between God and Yeshua throughout scripture, I don't think that this is the case.
Could this be a “royal we” reference like kings and queens of all generations have used? It is possible, but since I don't see that kind of language used by God very much in scripture, I don't think it's likely.
Could this be God speaking to His heavenly court, the angels? I personally believe that this is one of two possible answers.
Could this be God speaking to all of creation as He appears to be doing in part in some of the previous verses, (e.g. “let the earth bring forth…”, “let the waters abound…”, etc)? I personally believe that this is the other possibility that reasonably fits the passage.
However, all of what I have suggested, (including the answers that I have rejected), are mere speculation. Unless you approach the passage with a certain bias already in mind, there is no way to answer your question definitively.
Oh, another possibility which I am sure will be suggested is that this is God talking to “the Word”, but since the concept of a pre-existent Messiah violates the promise that Messiah would be the offspring of David, (as opposed to his creator/father), I don't see this as a possibility either. (See page 169 for further comments from me on pre-existence.)
By the way, one thing that is clear throughout the passage is that it is God who is doing the work.
Quote Genesis 2:2
“And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”
Hi A7 and WIT,
God designed creation and trees are part of that creation. He causes the roots to enter the ground to find water and sustenance and the branches to reach upwards seeking light and air.
God uses these natural things to demonstrate his truth toosuch as Mal 4.1,Mt 3.10,13.6
Rom 11.16
” If the first piece of dough is holy the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree do not be arrogant towards the branches;but if you are arrogant, remember it is not you who supports the root,but the root supports you”
And Rom 15.12 speaking of Jesus Christ the son of David
” Again Isaiah says
'There shall come from the root of Jesse, and he who arises to rule over the gentiles, in him shall the gentiles hope”So that is why it is very significant what Rev 22.16 says
“I,Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star”He says about himself he is the ROOT AND THE DESCENDANT of DAVID.That is not too surprising in the context of time since he also said he was before Abraham. But he is saying more than that. He is saying David came to be THROUGH him.Again anyone familiar with Heb 1 etc will know all creation came THROUGH him and that includes all men among them David.
He clarified this also in Mt 22 41f culminating in his question
” If David called him Lord, how is he his son?”
He was not saying he was not a son of David but saying he preexisted David who knew of his existence and glory long before Jesus drew breath.Quote (Guest @ June 04 2005,09:28) Its a simple question. Have you told Jesus that you love Him lately?
Hi CF,
The Son of God is the Supreme Commander of the armies of God of which I am a lowly foot soldier. He would prefer that I do the work he has assigned me than express my endearments I am sure. I deeply love and respect the Son of God. I bless and thank him daily. I sanctify him in my heart.
But I did not join the Army by sending love letters but by obeying his commands and I enjoy his love if I abide in him and his teachings abide in me. That is how I show my love for him and his Father by upholding and defending his place in God's kingdom and his precious teachings.
He said
” Why do you call me” Lord, Lord” and do not what I say?”
and
“If you love me keep my commandments”Im glad to hear that you thank Him and Bless Him daily, but do you also tell Him that you love Him?
Rev 2 – These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen!
Dont forsake your first love Nick.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2005,20:18) Rom 11.16
” If the first piece of dough is holy the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree do not be arrogant towards the branches;but if you are arrogant, remember it is not you who supports the root,but the root supports you”
Hi,
So the original branches are the Israelites and the grafted in wild branches are the Gentiles.They do not have existence of their own and die apart from the tree.
What is the plant-the olive tree? Is it God ? No God has to be the ultimate source of life to the tree, as God is not dependant on any resources. The olive tree is dependant on the soil. So God is the soil that provides water and goodness to all creation.
So what is the tree roots and tree trunk? We know in the NT Jesus says he is the vine and we are the branches. I believe it is the same in the Old and The New Testments. He is the root of Jesse. He is the rock, the spiritual drink that the Israelites drank from[1Cor 10.4] He is before Abraham and even Adam as all creation came through him. He is the basis of all relationships to God and always has been.
What do others think?Quote (Artizan007 @ June 04 2005,16:32) WIT Who was God speaking of in Creation when he said, let US make man in our image. I would be interested to know what you think on that concept.
Have a great day
Hi A7 and WIT,
We know from Heb 1.3 the Son of God, in relationship to God, is:
“the radiance of His Glory and the exact representation of His nature”
We know also from the same chapter that the Son is also him of whom is spoken
“through whom He also made the world”Again Coll 1.15 says of Jesus Christ
” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth”So since the Son is the IMAGE of the Father and all things were CREATED THROUGH HIM it is entirely logical that what is created in the image of God is also in the image of the Son of God. It also is totally acceptable that the Father would say to him, in the hearing of the rest of the heavenly court who were not involved in creation:
“Let US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, according to OUR likeness”
Artizan007
Regarding Genesis 1:26
I see WhatIsTrue has answered your question well. I offer the following article in aid of your search. It may prove of interest to you.
For Revelation 22:16 – the root and the offspring of David.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 1:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says: “There shall be a root of Jesse. And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”
Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.Jesse had many sons but David was the chosen one. The Messiah was to come from Abraham (as the promised seed) through Jesse and then through David. The phrases ‘root’ and ‘offspring’ are simply referring back to his family lineage through his father Joseph, who is of the house and lineage of David (Luke 2:4). He was the seed, the rod, the root, the branch, that was to come from Abraham, Jesse, and David through Joseph.
To say that he is the root and offspring of David is saying that his lineage goes back beyond David to Abraham, and that he is the son of David – Yahshua is the prophesied Messiah.
Hi RR,
Yes. Jesus is the offspring of David. But “root” does not mean “offspring”. Roots grow before the plant and support that plant. They precede the plant formation and development of the plant and not vice versa.Scripture is precise and pure.
If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.To t8
Quote quote from t8
I have heard this before from Ramblinrose and others who follow Anthony Buzzard.
Please allow me to state that I do not ‘follow Anthony Buzzard', nor do I follow any man other than Yahshua. I have numerous articles from various sites including Anthony Buzzard; some I agree with, others I disagree with. If I post a link to an article it is for the content of that article. I have most likely posted links to his site, but no more than any other – infact, probably less. I therefore fail to understand why you feel the need to make the above statement about me.Quote Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 3:12-13
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Replies to each of the above verses, and others, can be found at the following address, which are taken from the book ‘One Lord & One God’ which this site has apparently received permission to reprint.
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules….sid=109The following quote is taken from the above articles to encourage those seeking to have a look at the material and come to their own conclusions:
Quote 1 Corinthians 10:4b
They drank of that spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. (KJV)1. This verse is only a problem if it is misunderstood or mistranslated. Some Trinitarians use it to teach that Christ was actually with the Israelites, following them around. However, the Old Testament makes no mention of Christ being with the Israelites in the wilderness. And if he had been, he certainly would not have been “following” them.
2. The word “follow” means “to go after,” and that can mean either in time or space. The Israelites did “drink,” i.e., get nourishment, from knowing about the Christ who was to come after them. The very Trinitarian NIV translates the word “follow” as “accompany,” as if Jesus were accompanying the Israelites on their journey. The Greek word usually translated “follow” is akoloutheo. It appears in the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament 90 times. Even in the NIV it is translated as some form of “follow” (like “follows,” “following,” etc.) 83 times. The NIV translates akoloutheo as “accompanied” only twice, here and in Mark 6:1, and we submit that the NIV does so here because of the translators’ Trinitarian bias and not because the context calls for it. Although it is true that akolutheo can be translated as “accompany,” it should not be translated that way here, but would be better translated as “followed.” The vast majority of translations agree. As we have said, there is no verse in the Old Testament that records Jesus Christ traveling with the Israelites, so the translation “accompanied” does not fit with the rest of Scripture. Christ was the hope of Israel, and people who looked forward to him were strengthened by their anticipation of their coming Messiah.
3. Since this verse mentions the Israelites in the desert, the desert wanderings become the “remoter context” against which one must check any interpretation. As we have already noted, there is no reference that can be brought forward to show that Christ was either with the Israelites or was somehow following them around. Are there verses that show that the Israelites were looking forward to the Messiah? Yes, many. The Passover Lamb foreshadowed the Messiah. The manna anticipated Christ being “the true bread from heaven.” The Tabernacle, with all its offerings, foreshadowed Christ in many ways, including being the place where people would meet God. The High Priest was a type of the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. It was in the wilderness where that great prophecy of the coming Messiah was given: “A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel,” and “their kingdom will be exalted” (Num. 24:7,17). There is no question that the lesson from these verses is that the people looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and “drank,” i.e., got strength and nourishment, from knowing that he was coming.
Buzzard, pp. 52 and 53
Snedeker, pp. 440 and 441Quote (Ramblinrose @ June 05 2005,02:06) Replies to each of the above verses, and others, can be found at the following address, which are taken from the book ‘One Lord & One God’ which this site has apparently received permission to reprint.
Ramblinrose,
Your post says you are supplying “REPLIES TO VERSES” in your quoted materials.If you “REPLY” to people you are arguing against them.
So if you “REPLY TO VERSES” you then admit you are arguing against the Word of God.
I suggest you resolve your conflicts with the Word of God and come up with ideas of your own before you promote someone else's doctrines in this forum.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07) Scripture is precise and pure.
If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.
Not at all Nick!
They are not different.
It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.E.g. (Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3
Also (Job 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.
Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.
As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …
(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!
Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!
BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!i.e.
(Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Hope the above clarifies …
Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 05 2005,06:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07) Scripture is precise and pure.
If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.
Not at all Nick!
They are not different.
It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.E.g. (Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3
Also (Job 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.
Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.
As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …
(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!
Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!
BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!i.e.
(Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Hope the above clarifies …
Sadly Adam Pastor I am no closer to seeing what grows out of the bottom of a plant is the same as what grows from the top. Nor do I see clearly that what comes before is the same as what comes after. Neither is the son of man, the same as a man. One is a son and one is not. Sorry but it looks like good on fudging of the truth to me.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07) Scripture is precise and pure.
If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.
Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'[UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)
[Thayer's Lexicon]
rhiza {hrid'-zah}
Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
Usage: AV – root 17; 17G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
[LS Grk Lex.]
35625 r`i,za
III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.[Friberg Grk Lex]
04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;
Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,05:10) Quote (Ramblinrose @ June 05 2005,02:06) Replies to each of the above verses, and others, can be found at the following address, which are taken from the book ‘One Lord & One God’ which this site has apparently received permission to reprint.
Ramblinrose,
Your post says you are supplying “REPLIES TO VERSES” in your quoted materials.If you “REPLY” to people you are arguing against them.
So if you “REPLY TO VERSES” you then admit you are arguing against the Word of God.
I suggest you resolve your conflicts with the Word of God and come up with ideas of your own before you promote someone else's doctrines in this forum.
Nick,Many people question the verses that have been quoted. I did not say they were 'MY REPLIES' I said they were ‘Replies to each of the above verses’ and what source they were from.
Since when does reply mean argue against. My dictionary says reply = answer, response.
The link I posted gives answers / responses to those verses. They are the replies/answers/responses from the book 'One Lord & One God'.
You enjoy attacking and trying to discredit anyone who does not see things your way. Even to the point of the petty post above.
If you cared to read the articles you would find that many of them actually support your view of the trinity being false.
Nick wrote:
Quote Yes. Jesus is the offspring of David. But “root” does not mean “offspring”. Roots grow before the plant and support that plant. They precede the plant formation and development of the plant and not vice versa. Nick,
Even if you wish to discard all the scriptural evidence that Ramblinrose and AdamPastor have provided, your understanding, based on a strictly natural analogy, is still faulty. For example, how many trees have you observed where the roots form completely and totally before the rest of the plant grows? In nature, a healthy tree is both adding branches year after year as well as adding roots. As the tree gets bigger, the roots grow deeper, stronger, and more numerous. So it is entirely possible in nature for a tree that is a hundred years old to form new roots. At the very least, it is obvious that the roots of a hundred year old tree did not fully exist even a year after the tree was planted. So, to be “a root” of Jesse, Yeshua would not have to pre-exist him.
Of course, the scriptures clearly show this, but you have dismissed the clear meaning of all the scriptures that have been shown to you, so I thought I'd add a purely natural explanation to see if that might help you see a bit of truth.
Hi, AP,RR And WIT,
It comes as no surprise to see you all still using every avenue to try to establish that a root means a descendant. That is because you all ascribe to a doctrine that denies that Jesus Christ existed before Abraham and doctrinal defense seems, on the surface, to take greater priority for you than simple biblical truth. I think we should go back to our roots on these matters.To you Jesus Christ is just a man. He cannot be shown to you to be more than a man born of Mary. To be the “only begotten Son of God” who was “with God in the beginning” and was before Abraham is anathema. While I agree it is possible to find rationalisations or friendly lexicons for the task of scriptural exegesis but it does require that you must first ignore the obvious.
The obvious is that the root is what the shoot springs from. The obvious is that even when a plant is chopped down it does not die because shoots can spring anew from that root. The root continues to grow but it never becomes a shoot. It is obvious that a root is not a shoot. But Jesus Christ is both.
Even if a shoot springs from a root far from the original plant it is still a shoot. It will always grow naturally upwards and not downwards. It is the job of the shoot to produce the reproductive parts of the plant so as to produce seed for descendants. It is of different character from roots and produces leaves to absorb light and not nutrients from the soil. Roots do not produce descendants naturally except via the work of the shoot.
I think we should use simple commonsense in these matters and not look for doctrinal justifications if it is the master we serve who loves his Word. Any child knowing basic biology will agree with simple truths such as the above.
I do not expect to convince you as even scripture has not done so far so I expect we will have to agree to disagree till we all meet with the author.
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