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942767……THAT LAST VIDO IS EXACTLY RIGHT, A Trinitarian is an IDOLATAR. NO TWO WAY ABOUT IT, TURNING THE IMAGE OF JESUS INTO A GOD IS IDOLATRY . 2 THS 2.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Those who hold with the trinity are idolaters? Oh. c’,pm, Gene. That makes absolutely no sense, given the fact the trinity is a central tenant in the Christian religion.
hoghead1…You are right,it is the center of modern christianity, but it turns the man Jesus into a God , “GOD THE SON” and that is IDOLATRY ‘ 2THS2, read it and try to understand that “man of sin” is the false “IMAGE” of Jesus, he is the “only” man who now sits inthetemple of God who is being “desplayed” as a God.
he that has ears to hear let him hear.
peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hello, Gene,
I hear what you are saying. However, I find you have overlooked some very important things. One is that the church fathers and other Trinitarians are very well aware of what Scripture has to say. That’s why they are Trinitarians. Apparently, you have arrived at an interpretation of Scripture highly discrepant from the fathers and later Trinitarians. He other is that the Trinitarian doctrines insist that Christ is both man and God, not just God alone or man alone. Again, this is seen as having a solid biblical basis.
Nick, please. If you want to participate in a serious theological discussion, not just shouting and name-calling, let me make a constructive criticism and suggest you need to tone down your language. I gather from your question that you haven’t studied much church history. So if there is something you are unfamiliar with, feel free to ask. That’s the thing to do. Forget the denunciations. The term “church fathers” is one of respect used by clergy, scholars, and serious students of theology to denote the great Christian church builders and thinkers of the past, major figures as Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Calvin, Luther, etc. Had it not been for them, we wouldn’t be here today. In fact, Christianity would have long ago completely vanished from the face of the earth. Their teachings established the foundations much of our faith is based on yet today. Many Christians naively assume that the are simply getting all their ideas directly from Scripture. Truth is, nobody, and I mean nobody, comes to Scripture , with a blank mind. Everyone views Scripture through lens. Generally, this lens happens to be the great traditions laid down by the fathers. If you hold with Sola Scripture, that whole concept was introduced by the Protestant Reformers: Calvin, Luther, Zwingli. If you want any real degree of insight into your own faith, then you need to study carefully the fathers. Now, this doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything they say. I know I don’t. However, it does mean you should proceed carefully, not recklessly dump them as all usurpers, especially when you don’t know anything about them. If you think you can go them one better, fine. But first you need to study up, gain insight into what they taught, why, and how this has affected you. If, for example, you think you can compose church music better than Bach, have at it. But first you at least need to study and respect Bach. Likewise, if you think you can do a better job than the fathers did at something complex like the Trinity, have at it. But you need to be extremely careful to insure you took the first step, which is to understand what the fathers had to say on the subject, their arguments, their reasons. Then you need to present them in a systematic way and go down through their arguments, point for point, providing a rational rebuttal to each of their arguments. Short of that, you are simply ranting, throwing rocks through stained-glass windows, and firing off lusty salvos of cheap shots at those way beyond you in their spiritual development and intellectual achievements.
Hi hoghead,
Why should I be interested in church history if the work of the Holy Spirit among men almost vanished with the death of Paul and the other apostles?
Surely you do not suggest that we follow men and their vain ideas when God still wants to bless men in this way?
Acts 2.38-39
Hello, Nick,
Where did you get the idea that the work of teh Holy Spirit vanished with the death of Paul? The Holy Spirit is God present in ourselves and our world. The Spirit has always been at work. God didn’t one day just vanish from the scene. When you talk about the vain ides of men, what about your own ideas? Did you ever consider they might be vain, highly questionable? I am all too painfully aware that many are into what I call a cowboy theology. You don’t need to study church history, you don’t need to study traditions, God forbid you should study theology. Just sit back, relax, put your mind on hold, take a nice-and-easy anti-intellectual approach and simply free associate to Scripture. Whatever pops into your mind, well, that’s the work of the Spirit. No question about it. No need to check in with others. That would be getting all mixed with the vain ideas of men, yours, of course, being the big exception here, you being so much more spiritual and knowledgeable than all these church fathers and great leaders. One of teh reasons I became very interested in studying theology and church history and philosophy is this: Opinions are like sphincter muscles; everyone’s got one and everyone thinks his doesn’t stink whereas every one else’s does. I don’t know about you, but I sure didn’t want to live by the religious opinions of every Tom, Dick, and Harry. Mu way of installing some real measure of quality control into my faith network is to study very carefully history, what the great church leaders had to say, explore where my belief system came from, explore where I agreed or disagreed with the great traditions, etc. Now if you want to just sit back and merely free associate to Scripture, if that is what moves you, that’s fine by me. But any time I have seen persons do that, the result is either fanaticism or just a very shallow, ill-informed faith being professed.
Yes, Andrew, that and also the fact that it is assumed you really don’t need to do any critical thinking or studying. It’s a fad nowadays to go what’s called bible dipping. You have a problem, you simply flip open Scripture to whatever page it happens to be and whatever strikes you on that page is an answer to your questions. All this is assumed to be done by the Spirit. Ugh! Who needs all those pointy-headed intellectuals lecturing on and on about biblical languages, the authorship of Scripture, all this crap about doctrines and theology and philosophy and the like. Certainly we don’t want bothered by any references to the fathers, those major usurpers, etc. Ah, yes, we’re the slap-happy Christians. God bless Jim and Tammy. PTL everyone, PTL. I know I’m being a bit sarcastic, but that really is the way it went back in the days of the Moral Majority. I know, I lived right through that period. Same kind of thing still goes on today. OK, everyone, our service is about to start. Now, all those of you with above an eighth-grade education, back of the pews!
hoghead1… YOU tell us about the great men of scriptures setting your base of understandings. Well lets take one of the “susposely’ greatest of them, Calvin.
Lets check out this person whois suposely the one who is a credited as setting modern day christanity, lets chech out what most here and in christanity have not been told about him, his orchestrating of the death of an old Spanish theologian/physician named, Michael Servetus, who even today is accredited with the first medical doctor to descover that oxgen is infused into our blood through the function of the lungs, and who wrote and published a articles which shows clearly how the trinity is a false teaching. The exact records of his trial are avaliable for readers today. Seening you listed CALVIN as on of you “great church fathers” why not investigate some historical truth about him and his chosen dogmas, and to what extent he would go to see they were infused into the church , if you have time.
Here is a book available wrtten by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone, entitled, “OUT OF THE FLAMES” , but there are many scholars who have written and published his papers that were not burned as he was. Simply type in Michael Servetus, and while you are at it, here is another GREAT source about the trinity, Sir Issac Newton, (the Newton project) Albert Einstein was quoted as saying “he thought Newton was the greates human mind ever” and all these great minds taught against the trinity doctrine, or in your case doctrines it seems.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
hoghead1… YOU tell us about the great men of scriptures setting your base of understandings. Well lets take one of the “susposely’ greatest of them, Calvin.
Lets check out this person who is suposely the one who is a credited as setting modern day christanity, lets check out what most in christanity have not been told about him, for instance his orchestrating of the death of an old Spanish theologian/physician named, Michael Servetus, who even today is accredited with the first medical doctor to descover that oxgen is infused into our blood through the function of the lungs, and who wrote and published articles which shows clearly how the trinity is a false teaching. The exact records of his trial are avaliable for readers today. Seening you listed CALVIN as one of your “great church fathers”, why not investigate some historical truth about him and his chosen dogmas, and to what extent he would go to see they were infused into the church , if you have time that is.
Here is a book available wrtten by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone, entitled, “OUT OF THE FLAMES” , but there are many scholars who have written and published his papers that were not burned as he was. Simply type in Michael Servetus, and while you are at it, here is another GREAT source about the trinity, Sir Issac Newton, (the Newton project) Albert Einstein was quoted as saying “he thought Newton was the greates human mind ever to ever live” and all these great minds taught against the trinity doctrine, or in your case doctrines it seems. I wonder why they couldnotfind anysupport of it as you seem to have?
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Hi hoghead,
Certainly those who wish to remain in control prefer the idle philosophies of men to the words of the Spirit.
Hello, Gene,
I’m not quite sure you grasped my point. Again, I have been fussing about persons not studying enough about church history and doctrine. Therefore, I think it’s great that you are studying up on Calvin. Incidentally, and this is somewhat off topic, but you forgot to mention the part about Calvin issuing a public, written death threat on Servet about sever years earlier, dealing under the table with Catholic authorities to have them execute Servet on their territory, while carrying on a clandestine love affair with an Italian Catholic princess, under an assumed name. I say, if you really want to get juicy, let’s get juicy. Even juicier yet is Luther on Jews, and Luther writing “The Jews and Their Lies,” in which re recommended an extermination policy very close to what Hitler carried out, which is why Hitler often said, “I am only dong the Lord’s work.” OK, back on topic. My concern is that there is too much cowboy faith today where people completely ignore anything at all like studying up on Calvin or anyone or anything else. For example, several years ago, at our local Presbyterian church, I said something about Calvin to one of the elders, whom I well know. She cut me off immediately, saying, “Oh, who the hell cares about Calvin? He died 700 years ago in Scotland, anyway.” See, that’s what I’m concerned about: a church leader having zip knowledge of church history and no real interest at all in it. Now, in my town, as any town, there are Presby churches and there are Baptist churches, for example. So ask yourself this question: How many members, staunch or otherwise of those churches, know why that is, why they aren’t all in the same church? How many took the time to study up on the Reformers and the Anabapisits and how the Reformers, such as Calvin, tried to exterminate the Anabaptists off the face of the earth, and that really the Anabapists are the ones following Scripture most closely on Baptism? Now, OK, many in some cases many do know about that, but honestly, today, there are too many cowboy churches, where they could care less, have absolutely no interest in their roots, good, bad, or indifferent as these latter may have been. Result: Superfical faith, boring, uninteresting, and unchallenging.
Getting back to Calvin per se, I never presented him as beyond all reproach. What I said is that he and the other Reformers deserve careful study as they provided the foundation for the Protestant religion and therefore are worthy of careful study. Where they blew it, is important to know about so that we don’t repeat this in the future. Also, remember, many of their doctrines have carried over into today: predestination, original sin, the immutable God, etc.
Hello, Nick,
Then, if you don’t mind, I’m not going to respond in any detail to your post, as I am using my time now to reflect on the biblical image of God as having deep feeling and changing, and therefore have no time to listen to the words of idle men such as yourself.
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