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Hi KW,
So God can impress on the minds of those born of the Spirit His teachings
Logic ought not interfere.
Hi davidl,
“At the heart of the Trinity is the Deity of Jesus Christ ”
Nonsense.
It has nothing to do with three being portrayed as equal and one in being.
Why all the attention on one of them??
Scripture says
God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to HIMSELF
Nick,
So according to you Paul interfered with the message of salvation by reasoning from Scripture?
I have said it before and I will say it again, you cannot condemn the use of a tool without condemning those that use that tool.
Hi KW
Rubbish.
He was led by the Spirit.
The Spirit used whatever tools were appropriate for the soul.
In so doing logic gained no glory.
Nick,
If you truly believe that then stop saying the opposite by condemning the use of reasoning.
As it is you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth because you choose to hold on to a teaching that is not in Scripture.
Tear down that stronghold that the evil one has constructed in you.
Logic needs or wants no more glory than does a hammer. Give God the glory for creating us with the ability to us and the Spirit to use it correctly.
Nick,
You sound like a Trinitarian who is afraid their doctrine will be tested and found to be short of the truth. It is an obstacle that the devil has set up. Logic is good when used Spiritually just as Jesus and his Apostles use it. It is evil when used Carnally such as Satan and his followers use it.
Hi,
The only importance of the trinity doctrine is that we must stay clear of it.
Come out of her lest you suffer for her sins.
“JESUS IS GOD.” – John MacArthur
I know what many men say. Some say he is a mere man, some say he is Almighty God. Others say that he was a deceiver, some say a lunatic, and still others say he was a good man.
But what does scripture teach about who Jesus is?
Scripture teaches that he is the son of God, the Christ, and the one whom God made Lord.
Be not deceived. The sheep hear the voice of the shepherd above the many other voices that try to get our attention.
If we love the one who is called the Truth, then we will love truth.
If we reject truth, then we reject the one who personifies truth.
What if Jesus claimed to the be the son of the one true God?
Would you believe him or would you stick to tradition instead.
Truth or Tradition. One is part of life, the other is part of death.
Hi davidl,
You quote me
“Actually Nick – I gave up listening to you a long time ago…
(when you called the Word’s of Jesus Christ “useless”).”Please show this.
What you will find is that the words of carnal men are useless
and in the case of trinity worse than useless, dangerously blasphemic.
QUOTES FROM – ‘THE HOLY TRINITY’ 1522
“It is a heavenly mystery which the world cannot understand”
“I have often told you that this, as well as every other article of faith, must not be based upon reason or comparisons, but must be understood and established by means of passages from the Scriptures.”
“The Scriptures gradually and beautifully lead us to Christ; first revealing him to us as a man, then as the lord of all creatures. and finally as God. Thus we are successfully led to the true knowledge of God. But the philosophers and the wise men of this world would begin at the top and so they have become fools.”
“In this Gospel you see clearly what reason and freewill can do. You may see it distinctly in Nicodemus, who was the best of the best, a prince and leader of the Pharisees, and the Pharisees held first place in their day. They were, however, in the highest things–in spiritual life–altogether blind and dead before God, however holy, wise, good and mighty they may have been considered by men.”
“Reason is so blind that it can neither perceive nor understand the things of God, nor all things which properly belong to its own sphere, This is a blow to nature and human reason, which have been rated so high by philosophy and the wise men of this world.”
“God has here given us an example showing that even the best in nature must fail. In instances where human nature is at its best it is blind.”
“Christ has here demonstrated by examples, words and deeds that human reason is altogether blind and dead before God, Hence, it cannot appreciate divine things nor desire them.”
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
“Although the natural man hears the Word of God, the Gospel, and delights in it, yet it does not enter the heart. Therefore, we must slay reason and experience the new birth. This is what Christ means when he says that we must be born anew. Reason cannot understand this.”
“..reason takes offense at the Spirit, imagines unrealities and conceives of this new birth as a natural birth.”
” Now, Christ speaks and destroys reason, saying: “Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?” You should teach others the spiritual birth, that they might become righteous, but you yourself do not understand it.”
“Renounce your reason and close your eyes; cling only to My Word and believe it.”
“You presume to judge spiritual things by your reason, and at the same time you cannot understand the simple things of nature. He calls Nicodemus’ attention to the wind. No philosopher or scientist has ever been able to comprehend and describe the nature of the wind–where it has its beginning or where it ends. We cannot see where the wind comes from, or how it blows past us, or how far it goes. Now, if we cannot by our reason fathom those things which we see daily in nature, much less will we be able to fathom with our reason the divine works which God accomplishes within us.”
“How a man is born anew may easily be told in words. When, however, it is a question of experience, as it was here with Nicodemus, then it is a hard matter to understand and it requires effort to attain the experience. It is easy to say: We must blind our reason, disregard our feelings, close our eyes and only cling to the Word–finally die and yet live. But to persevere in this, when it becomes a matter of experience and when we are really tested, requires pains and labor. It is a very bitter experience.”
“He who is born of the flesh fights to defend himself, looks hither and thither, employs his reason to make his living.”
“Thus we must abandon the life of the flesh and enter into a new life, being dead to the old. This is a real dying and not merely a painful sensation, like the scratching off of a scab, as the philosophers have said; and they have compared the entering upon the new life with the rinsing of a pot by the cook. There must be a real change and an entire transformation of nature, for the natural state and natural feeling must be completely overthrown.”
“Now, the Lord says here: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” “Flesh” means the whole man, with body and soul, reason and will, who is not yet born of the Spirit.”
“‘And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.’ Reason does not understand what this means, for it is a sermon from heaven.”
“This Gospel, then, signifies that our works are nothing, and that all human power can do is useless, but faith in Christ does it all.”
http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/MartinLuther/MLSermons/John3_1_15.html
The great Reformer Martin Luther (who was himself an Augustinian monk) changed the course of human history when he nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg in 1517, accusing the Roman Catholic church of heresy upon heresy. And yet amongst all his detailed Scriptural examination, personal reformation, and great expounding of false Roman Catholic doctrine, there is absolutely no question raised concerning the doctrine of the Trinity…!?! ..as you would suspect from someone who has set his face to revealing and exposing every false practice and teaching of the Catholic religion (if it is indeed as false as you self-proclaimed experts make it out to be) – NOTHING..!!!?
But to the contrary we find on further investigation that Luther actually preached fervently on the Trinity..this is the first part of a sermon he preached in 1522 titled – The Holy Trinity:
1″Today we celebrate the festival of the Holy Trinity, to which we must briefly allude, so that we may not celebrate it in vain. It is indeed true that the name “Trinity” is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man. For this reason it sounds somewhat cold and we had better speak of ‘God’ than of the ‘Trinity.’
2. This word signifies that there are three persons in God. It is a heavenly mystery which the world cannot understand. I have often told you that this, as well as every other article of faith, must not be based upon reason or comparisons, but must be understood and established by means of passages from the Scriptures, for God has the only perfect knowledge and knows how to speak concerning himself.
3. The great universities have invented manifold distinctions, dreams and fictions by means of which they would explain the Holy Trinity, and have made fools of themselves. We shall therefore quote only passages from the Scriptures in order to determine and establish the divinity of Christ. In the first place, we quote from the New Testament, where we find many proof texts; for instance, John 1, 1-3: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.” Now if he is not made, but is himself the Maker, he must indeed be God. John also says afterwards: “And the Word became flesh.”
4. Again, we quote from the Old Testament, where David says, in Ps 110, 1: “Jehovah saith unto my lord, Sit thou at my right hand,” that is, sit upon the royal throne and be a lord and king over all creatures, all which must be subject to thee–“until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” In Ps 8, 4-8, we read: “What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him.? For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honor. Thou makest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: all sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.” That means: Thou hast made him Lord of the whole world. Paul explains this passage, in Eph 1, 20 and Col 2, 9-10, in a masterly way. Now, if God has set him at his right hand and made him lord of all in heaven and on earth, he must indeed be God; for it would not be fitting that he should set him at his right hand and give him as much power over all creatures as he himself possesses, if he were not God. God will not give his glory to another, as he says in Is 48, 11. Thus, we have here two persons, the Father, and the Son to whom the Father has given all that is subject to him. To “sit at the right hand of God” means to be over all God’s creatures; he must therefore be God to whom is given all this.
5. God has also commanded us not to worship strange gods. Now, we read in John that, according to the will of God, we should honor the Son even as we honor the Father. These are the words of John 5, 19-23, where Christ says to the Jews: “Verily, Verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son; that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him.” These are, to my mind, truly clear and distinct words concerning the divinity of Christ. Now, as God commands that we should have only one God, and should not render to any other creature the glory which belongs to God and is due him, and yet he gives this glory to Christ, Christ must indeed be God.
6. Paul says in Rom 1, 2-4: “The Gospel he promised afore through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord.” Therefore, according to the flesh he began to exist, but according to the spirit he existed from eternity, although it was not clearly understood before; as it was not necessary that we should make a God of him, but only that we should declare and understand that he is the Son of God. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, as Christ himself says in John 16, 13: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth.” And elsewhere the Evangelist writes, John 17, 1-5: “These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee: even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ. I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. And now, Father. glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
7. We also read in Ps 2, 8: “Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” He is truly enthroned king of all. He is God’s child, and the world is subject to no other prince or king. Likewise, in another psalm, David openly calls him God, when he says: “Thy throne, 0 God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” Ps 45, 6-7. God will make no one such a king who is not God, for he will not give the reins out of his hands; he alone will be the Lord over heaven and earth, death, hell, the devil and all creatures. If he, then, makes Christ Lord of all that is created, Christ must truly be God.
8. We can, therefore, have no surer foundation for our belief in the divinity of Christ than that we enwrap and enclose our hearts in the declarations of the Scriptures. The Scriptures gradually and beautifully lead us to Christ; first revealing him to us as a man, then as the lord of all creatures. and finally as God. Thus we are successfully led to the true knowledge of God. But the philosophers and the wise men of this world would begin at the top and so they have become fools. We must begin at the bottom and gradually advance in knowledge, so that the words of Proverbs 25, 27 may not apply to us: “It is not good to eat much honey; so for men to search out their own glory is grievous.”
9. Our faith in these two persons, the Father and the Son, is therefore sufficiently established and confirmed by passages from the Scriptures. But of the Holy Spirit, the third person, we read in Mt 28, 19 that Christ sent forth his disciples, saying to them: “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Here divinity is also ascribed to the Holy Spirit, since I may trust or believe in no one but God. And I must trust only in one who has power over death, hell, the devil and all creatures, whose authority withholds them from harming me, and who can save me. None will suffice except one in whom I may trust absolutely. Now, Christ in this passage commands that we should also believe and trust in the Holy Spirit; therefore he must be God. In the Gospel according to John, Christ speaks frequently to his disciples of the Holy Spirit, his power or existence.
10. In Gen 1, 2 we read: “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” But this passage is not as clear as the one last quoted; the Jews attack it and affirm that the word “spirit” in Hebrew signifies “wind.”
11. David says in Psalm 33, 6: “By the word of Jehovah were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the Spirit of his mouth.” Here it is quite clear that the Holy Spirit is God, because the heavens and all their hosts were made by him. And, again, David says in Ps 139, 7-8: “Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.” Now, this cannot be said of any creatures–that it is everywhere and fills the whole world-but only of God, the Creator.
12. Therefore, we cling to the Scriptures, those passages which testify of the Trinity of God, and we say: I know very well that in God there are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; but how they can be one I do not know, neither should I know it. This may suffice for the first part. Now we will come back to the Gospel and say something on that in the time that is left us.”
http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/MartinLuther/MLSermons/John3_1_15.html
(..but of course I know you guys are far more enlightened on the Word of God these days, than those who literally gave their own lives for it..!!)
Hi DavidL:
Martin Luther did good in rebelling against the teachings of the Catholic church, but just because he did not include the “Trinity doctrine” in those doctrines that he rendered as false, does not mean that this doctrine should also have been included. It is not scriptural. The scriptures plainly state that there is “One God”, and it does not state that there are the persons in that definition. An opinion of someone’s interpretation of what they believe that the bible states is not a basis for sound doctrine.
It would be easy just to go along with the flow, and say, oh well, the so called Orthodox church has been adhering to this doctrine since the council of Nicea, and so it must be correct, even though I don’t understand it, nor can anyone, who is in authority in the church , explain it except by saying that it is a mystery. I cannot teach something that God did not say, and to tell anyone that I agree with what the church teaches simply to go along with the crowd would be a lie. I know where liars and hypocrites will end up. I and you and the church will be responsible to God for what we teach, and if our teaching a doctrine causes others to reject the gospel, and not be saved, we also will be held accountable.
There are many scriptures which state that there is but “one God”, and there is “one mediator between men and God, the Lord Jesus, and the scriptures state that God revealed that Jesus is “the Christ the Son of the Living God”, and “the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.”
My and your salvation is based on “faith” which is believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, and that God has raised him from the dead, and that he is the propitiation for the sin’s of mankind, and that by confessing as my Lord I can be reconciled to God. That is the gospel in an nutshell. Tell me where does this say that I have to believe the “Trinity doctrine”?
Love in Christ,
Marty
The Trinity is a reality whether you believe it or not..
It’s not a stumbling block to salvation..
As many born again Muslims and Jews will testify –
Sure it can be USED as an excuse for denying the Christian faith..
But there are many excuses.. if that’s all you’re looking for.The REAL stumbling block is our own human Logic..
You MUST be born again..!!!
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