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Whether John intended the Logos (the Word) to be a pre-existent person in John 1:1c, or he intended it as something else – the truth is that the Logos is described as a god according to the rest of John’s (and all the other Gospel writers) grammar and usage in the rest of his writings. – https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/seven-lessons-for-john-11c/
Hi davidl,
“The trinity says that there is one god and all 3 are that god on various forms, a pastor I heard pray, this is the very words he prayed, ‘thankyou Lord Jesus for bringing us back to yourself”. they say that the son of god before he became a man was co eternal with the Father. Jesus says here the opposite, he says HE was the beginning of the creation of GOD, His father and ours.”
So the trinity denies that Jesus is the SON of God?
t8
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” – Proverbs 12:15
Let me explain. If God is a Trinity, then the Trinity is God. If Jesus is the son OF God, then he is the son of the Trinity.
lol, it is easy to see that false doctrine leads to false conclusions.
I guess you can’t see how your own logic beguiles you…??
but these ‘false conclusions’ are drawn straight from your natural reasoning..!!
blinding you to the truth which alone is ‘spiritually‘ discerned – and unattainable to human logic..!!
but are you too proud to admit it I wonder? We will see.
Hi davidl,
Since there is no trinity in scripture you are peddling ERROR based not on spiritual wisdom but your own reasoning.
Scripture is the wisdom of God.
I’m not actually defending the trinity – but the Deity of Christ..
which you deny by rejecting the trinity.
Hi davidl,
Col 119
“For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell IN HIM and through him to reconcile all things to Himself””
t8
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” – Proverbs 12:15
That is exactly right. That is why I believe the following words of Jesus Christ.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Ask yourself this question. Is the fool the one who believes this and repeats it or the one who does not believe it because of a certain man-made doctrine.
Perhaps you should read the scripture you quote and meditate on it for a while? After all, I believe in Jesus words but you contest me when I quote them.
t8
I believe in Jesus words but you contest me when I quote them.
Correction: I contest you because you use the words of Christ to promote your own teaching..
which is based on human logic – and not revelation..
you do here what all false teachers do – bend the Scriptures to fit your own concepts..
because you cannot make logical sense of the Tri-unity, you end up cherry-picking verses to promote what you think is true
you take one side of the coin and use it to deny the whole picture..
so now you’re actually the one promoting false doctrine.
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”
to use this verse as you do (in an anti-trinity context) is to make the words of Christ deny His own testimony..!!
you use the Deity of the Father to deny the deity of the Son..!!
yet if you take this verse back from the anti-trinity box you put it in, we suddenly see within it the very thing you are using it against – the Oneness of Jesus Christ with the Father..!!!
eternal life is in the Father AND the Son together..
a Unity that makes Him equal to God.
God the Son.
We are taught in scripture that the one who denies that Jesus is the son of God is of the Antichrist spirit.
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son.You see, if you deny the son, then you have to deny that God is a Father also.
Islam for example blatantly proclaims that Allah (God) has no son. This would by biblical standards make that of the Antichrist spirit. A God that does not have a son cannot be the God spoken of in scripture.
But denying the Father and the Son is not always so blatant. There are deceptive doctrines in the Church that subtly deny the Father and the Son. One such doctrine is the Trinity. This doctrine teaches that Jesus is God himself and one of three members that make up a triune God. Yet scripture is adamant, there is but one God the Father and the Jews who were given the Old Testament have never believed in the Trinity and have never been rebuked for not believing in the Trinity.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Ephesians 4:5-6
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.But how does the Trinity deny the Father and the Son?
If you say that Jesus is God, then clearly you are denying that he is the image of that God. An image cannot be the source and God is not an image.
Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.If you say that Jesus is God, then clearly you are denying that God made Jesus Lord and Messiah.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”If you say that Jesus is God, then indeed you are denying that he is the son of that God.
John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.Unless Jesus is the son of himself (God) he cannot be God. Clearly he is the son of the one true God. Any doctrine or religion that denies that he is the son of God whether in word or deed, is of the Antichrist spirit according to the Apostle John.
We need to be careful as to what we believe. We need to check all things out to see if they are true. We should never accept teachings without first testing them. We test them using the scriptures and the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit.
Listen to the words of eternal life from Jesus himself. Read them carefully. Do you believe these words to be true? If so, you cannot hold to the Doctrine of the Trinity.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.God is often spoken of as HIM and HE, never THEY or THEM as would be grammatically correct if we held to the Trinity Doctrine.
There is one true God, the Father, and one whom he made Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. God made him the messiah, and he is the only begotten son of God. It is through the son of God that we can have fellowship with God himself.
Correction: I contest you because you use the words of Christ to promote your own teaching..
which is based on human logic – and not revelation..
you do here what all false teachers do – bend the Scriptures to fit your own concepts..John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Okay, now is the time for you to explain why Jesus words here do not mean what they say.
Show us how to interpret these words of eternal life please.
We are all ears.t8
the Jews who were given the Old Testament have never believed in the Trinity and have never been rebuked for not believing in the Trinity.
Is this your proof – !?
..are you as blind as they were (..who crucified their own Messiah)…??!!
They likewise rejected the revelation of Jesus Christ and were openly rebuked for their stubbornness on numerous occasions –
“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”
If you say that Jesus is God..
This is what Scripture says.. “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” – John 1:18
..then clearly you are denying that he is the image of that God. An image cannot be the source and God is not an image.
so your logic denies what Scripture reveals…!!
Unless Jesus is the son of himself (God) he cannot be God.
so, according to your misguided logic the Son cannot be God because that would make Him the Son of Himself…???
by this you are saying, For Jesus to be God… the Son would have to be the Father..!!
This is your confusion… that attempts to justify your logic rather than Scripture..!!
Hear what the Son Himself says – “I and the Father are ONE.”
You try to explain this away in a non-literal sense (as if any spirit filled believer could say these same words)..!!
yet if you take John 1:1 without tampering with it, you find the same ‘Two is One‘ message.. (Scriptural confirmation)
But you confuse things because of your wrong understanding of the Trinity..
Remember that the word ‘Trinity’ simply means Three in Unity (Tri-unity)..
Which shows that the complete unity which the Son has with the Father simply makes Him equal to God the Father, as God..
Remember also that in laying down His own position with the Father to become a man, His Deity was largely concealed throughout His mission here on earth…so, as a Man, Jesus openly acknowledges His Father as the one true God, and seeks no recognition for Himself, save only in the sense that the Father had sent Him (ie. He did not come to reveal His own glory (Deity), but instead to empty Himself and fulfill His earthly mission of laying down His life as the Lamb of God)..
Yet when He returns He is coming as God – to judge the nations..
Listen to the words of eternal life from Jesus himself. Read them carefully. Do you believe these words to be true? If so, you cannot hold to the Doctrine of the Trinity.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.So again according to your logic – no one can believe this verse if they believe that Jesus is One with the father… and yet millions of Spirit-filled Believers the world over know the simple Father/Son reality which your own basic logic denies you..!!!
First of all you should know that you cannot form a doctrine on one verse (or verses that say one thing), but must look at the total testimony of Scripture – Yes, the Bible says that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is His Son (a verse that actually shows the unity of the Son with the Father if you take your anti-trinity glasses off) – but these verses must be held up against those that speak of His Deity, such as when God the Father Himself calls the Son ‘GOD’ (not ‘a’ god) – “But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.” – Hebrews 1:8 – in other words, the understanding of spiritual things must be founded on the Spirit Himself…NOT our logic – in fact it is logic that is the root of confusion when comprehending spiritual matters. It is man’s interpretation of Scripture that has caused so much historical division to the Body of Christ (and still does)…because we want to understand with our heads – instead of waiting on the Spirit for revelation with an open heart. We must learn to see with the eyes of our heart – intellectual understanding is a false light and a deception that only puffs up, and is completely powerless to ascertain spiritual truth.
Hi Davidl,
All your arguments are based on a false premise, that God is a trinity.
Break free from this lie.
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