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spock
Tarrarica, Your claim boils down to Jesus mislead people.
Jesus has always been in the Father, and the Father in him from eternity to eternity.
this is your miss conception of the scriptures ;like i told you ,read the scriptures and stop putting in your thoughts ,you may understand them better ,Col;1;15-21
this is your miss conception of the scriptures ;like i told you ,read the scriptures and stop putting in your thoughts ,you may understand them better ,Col;1;15-21
Maybe if you allow Christ to teach you from his words you will come to realize who he is.
T8, Its in the scripture, its just that you pick the occasions that appear to support your assertions and ignore those that don’t.
Show me one scripture now, and I will take a look and reply.
Thanks.
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
This says nothing about him existing for all eternity. It is saying that which we already believe, that he is the image of the invisible God.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father
We already believe this. That they are one in unity. Jesus said:
John 17:21
I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.See that. It is talking about unity of spirit and purpose. And we are included. Yet we are not God and we did not exist for all eternity.
What other so-called evidence in scripture do you have?
T8,
Knowing that you have already interpreted supporting scripture for the pre-existence of Jesus as a personality reality to support your unbelief, I have a question. Before Jesus came Judaism had a concept of God as being one person with no God man sitting at his right hand. Is there only One personality in heaven now?
Jesus was with God as the Word. He was at his right-hand side even before there was a cosmos. He became flesh and then returned to the right-hand of the Majesty on High where he is now in the glory that he had with God. Eventually everyone will confess one way or another that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. That is his real identity, but all false religions will change his identity. Jesus even built his church on his identity and the Gates of Hell is trying to prevail against it.
Yeshua is the prototype that we will be like. He is the first-born of all creation and the exact image of God.
No one is above him except God his Father.
Jesus was with God as the Word. He was at his right-hand side even before there was a cosmos. He became flesh and then returned to the right-hand of the Majesty on High where he is now in the glory that he had with God. Eventually everyone will confess one way or another that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. That is his real identity, but all false religions will change his identity. Jesus even built his church on his identity and the Gates of Hell is trying to prevail against it.
Yeshua is the prototype that we will be like. He is the first-born of all creation and the exact image of God.
No one is above him except God his Father.
All of that yet Christ still wasn’t a personality realty beside his Father before he incarnate as Jesus? And he is not the sovereign ruler of his own creation now? It’s amazing what the rationalizing human mind is capable of. I think it’s you who change his identity to suit your misunderstanding of his rightful office.
What are you on about. The Father is God and the son is the son of that God. Simple, I teach that to my kids and they have no problem understanding it.
I asked you where the Trinity in the Bible is. Still waiting…
The Bible doesn’t teach the Trinity and if it doesn’t actually say that Jesus (or what he was before) existed with God for all eternity. Further it teaches clearly that the one true God is the Father and the son of that God is Yeshua.
No matter what you say. what I say is true regarding the Bible. Other books can say what they like, but the Bible doesn’t teach the Trinity or a son who is eternal like God is. Simple as that. Prove me wrong. You won’t be able to. And if you can, then great, you will have taught me something. I am only interested in the truth after all.
You Said “He” the Word, who became Jesus, was with God in the beginning, but the bible doesn’t say that the Son is NOT eternal with God. The Bible says he was with God in the beginning……but that’s a theoretical statement, there was no beginning of God or his Word.
You are saying God is eternal but his Word isn’t.
terraricca,
I quoted Jesus directly, you have no answer.
Lk 4:9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here.
Lk 4:10 For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
Lk 4:11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”Lk 4:12 Jesus answered, “It says: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’
why are you testing me with your so much greater ignorance ,what of course i can no longer macht ,?
Thanks Spock, I haven’t considered this one before so will give it a read today in context. Got some chores to run now.
Spock I saw this one straight away when I read it in context. Actually it looks like Terr is quoting it.
- The Devil is asking Jesus to tempt God by saying “If you are “the son of God”. He didn’t ask him “if he was God”.
- For it is written: “He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully”, and in this context ‘HE’ I imagine is God and ‘you’ is Christ. But I would also like to read this quote in the Old Testament but do not have time right now.
- Jesus answered, “It says: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test”. This simply means that he (Jesus) is not going to comply as he is not going to put the Lord God to the test. And who is the Lord God that he refers to?
The Lord God is our God and the God of Jesus too. His God is our God.
John 20:17 (English-NIV)
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,You Said “He” the Word, who became Jesus, was with God in the beginning, but the bible doesn’t say that the Son is NOT eternal with God. The Bible says he was with God in the beginning……but that’s a theoretical statement, there was no beginning of God or his Word.
You are saying God is eternal but his Word isn’t.
I will let Tatian (165 A.D) answer this for you:
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.
and Clement of Alexandria (ca. 200) has something to say too
The Son is the power of God, as being the Father’s most ancient Word before the making of all things. (Stromata, Book VII, 2).
He is the true only-begotten, the express image of the glory of the Universal King and Almighty Father…. [the only-begotten] the Second Cause. (Stromata, Book VII, 3; Clement shortly after refers to the Father as the “First Cause”).
Spock, these are by no means the only references to the Word coming from God by the early church fathers.
Basically what they taught and what scripture also appears to agree with is that the logos is an attribute of God. In all eternity God changes not. He is perfect. If a being came from God, he had to be like God because his parent is God. He would possess his nature and attributes as he came from the Father. As the Word who was WITH God, Yeshua’s existence by no means took away from the logos that was in God. Like a fire causes another fire, it doesn’t lessen the original fire.
To understand how this can be, you only need to look at wisdom. Wisdom is spoken of as a ‘she’ which means an attribute, and then wisdom is given birth, and then called the workman at God’s side when he created all things. Upon being begotten, the attribute is now a ‘He’ meaning a person. If I am talking about my car, I could say, ‘she’s very fast’ and you would know (in the right context) I was not talking about a person. If I said, “he is very fast”, then you would be confused and think I was talking about a person.
Jesus is Wisdom from God. He is the Logos of God. He is many things OF God. But he is not the original God. He is the image of God, the full image and expression of this one true God. The head of Christ is God. The head of the woman is the man. You will clearly read in scripture that Jesus is OF God. To be OF is testament in itself that you are not the thing you are OF.
Makes sense to me, the Father delegates creative powers and authority in his Son who is the embodiment of the Father as the Word. To see the Son is to see the Father.
Okay, I admit I was not expecting that answer from you. Good to see that you are open minded about things. 🙂
We probably still disagree on when the Son became a personality reality, his function and office. Some say he became the Word at birth, some say it was at his baptism and anointing, Christian Trinitarians would say he is an eternal part of the Trinity (the second person of deity). I believe that he is a Son of the Trinity, Father and creator of our local universe.
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