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WIT
Sorry that post did not send all the text I typed.
My question is: if he was not from heaven, why did Jesus say he came down from heaven?
Hi,]
Lk 20.9f
” A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vinegrowers, and went on a journey for along time. at the harvest time he sent a slave to the vinegrowers, so that they would give him some of the produce;but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty handed. And he proceeded to send another slave, and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty handed. And he proceeded to send a third;and this they wounded and cast out.
The owner of the vineyard said
'What shall I do? I will sned my beloved son;perhaps they will respect him. But when the vine-growers saw him they reasoned with each other, saying
'This is the heir;let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours. So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others”Who is the owner of the vineyard?
Who were the slaves who were SENT?
Who is the Son who was SENT and killed?
Were any others SENT?Nick,
I could answer yes for I have been sent into the world.
John the Baptist was sent from God and he came to this world to bear witness to the Light, also in the parable in Mat 21:37 it says the Father sent the servants, then more servants, then he sent his Son. All were [Sent] and the same word is used. Also in Matt 22:3.
That does not mean that all the servants were sent from heaven. Rather that they came under the authority of God. (Heaven sent, not Sent from Heaven)
And what is up with the all caps… is this a forum for discovery and one to be taught or one where you dictate what is to be said and taught. I am trying to understand truth, so please be aware that to me all caps is considered shouting in my understanding of Chat room or forum Etiquette.
If that is not your intention please be aware of this in future.
A7
sorry a7,
i hit the wrong button and was too lazy to go back and fix it. You are quite right.The point I make is that only Jesus and the Prophets are said by scripture to be sent by God and not you and I.
WhatIsTrue,
I believe what the Bible plainly teaches about Jesus:That in the beginning the Word was with God, and WAS God. (Joh 1:1)
That although being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. (Phil 2:6)
That the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (Joh 1:14)
That the Holy and Righteous One (Acts 3;15), the AUTHOR OF LIFE (Acts 3:15), He who laid the foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10), was killed.
That although the FIRST AND LAST (The Alpha and Omega, Rev 22:13) died, He is alive forevermore (Rev 1:17-18).
I will address your remaining question at a later date.
Hi A7,
Jer 1.4
” Now the word of the Lord came to me saying
'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;I have appointed you a prophet to the nations”So at least this prophet was known, consecrated and appointed. He was sent as a slave of God to do His work and suffer for God's sake in so doing.
Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,08:35) WhatIsTrue,
I believe what the Bible plainly teaches about Jesus:That in the beginning the Word was with God, and WAS God. (Joh 1:1)
That although being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. (Phil 2:6)
That the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (Joh 1:14)
That the Holy and Righteous One (Acts 3;15), the AUTHOR OF LIFE (Acts 3:15), He who laid the foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10), was killed.
That although the FIRST AND LAST (The Alpha and Omega, Rev 22:13) died, He is alive forevermore (Rev 1:17-18).
I will address your remaining question at a later date.
Hi DVD,
If God died who raised Him from the dead? God?Artizan, Nick Hassan, t8
As promised here are my thoughts on Jesus' begetting and His title “Son of God”. Not long ago I believed that Jesus was begotten “in the beginning”, sometime in eternity past. But recently realised that the Bible doesn't substantiate that premise anywhere. I now think that the verses that speak of this act were referencing the incarnation of Christ. I dont have time to fully expand this at the moment so will offer some of the scriptures that have led me to that conclusion. Please bear in mind I am still studying this and have reached only a tentative conclusion. I am open minded and happy to be corrected if I am in error.Quote John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.I find it interesting that John didn't use the word “Son” here in v1. He wrote that the “Word” existed (also see 1 Jn Ch1).
Compare John 1 this with the first part of Luke 1:
Quote Luke 1 (KJV)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Luke 1 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.Luke 1 (NIV)
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.Here Gabriel links the incarnation event with the conference of the title “Son of God”.
I think Psalm 2, and end times prophetic Psalm, refers to the incarnation:
Quote Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten theeThe writer of Hebrews quotes verse 7, and applies it in an interesting way (note the emphasis):
Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Remember that these are things that the Father was said to have spoken to the Son (v8). So He (The Father) said to the Son (Jesus):
I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son. That suggests that Jesus was not yet a Son.
So perhaps what John was trying to tell his readers in Joh 1 and 1 Joh 1 stands, that Jesus existed as the Word but was not yet a Son because He had not been begotten? However, I categorically reject the notion that the Word was merely a thought in the Father's mind and became a being at His incarnation. This relegates the Son to being merely a man, albeit an annointed one. But there are just far too many scriptures that validate His pre-existence.
What do you guys think?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,08:43) Hi DVD,
If God died who raised Him from the dead? God?
Yes.
Scriptures attributing the resurrection to the:Father; Gal 1:1, 1 Thess 1:10
Jesus; Joh 2:19-21, Joh 10:18, Matt 26:61, 27:40
Holy Spirit: Romans 8:11, 1 Pet 3:18Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,08:43) Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,08:35) WhatIsTrue,
I believe what the Bible plainly teaches about Jesus:That in the beginning the Word was with God, and WAS God. (Joh 1:1)
That although being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. (Phil 2:6)
That the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (Joh 1:14)
That the Holy and Righteous One (Acts 3;15), the AUTHOR OF LIFE (Acts 3:15), He who laid the foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10), was killed.
That although the FIRST AND LAST (The Alpha and Omega, Rev 22:13) died, He is alive forevermore (Rev 1:17-18).
I will address your remaining question at a later date.
Hi DVD,
If God died who raised Him from the dead? God?
Nick,
I didnt actually write that “God” died on the cross, I just listed scriptures. But i'm interested to see that you formulated that conclusion. If you disagree with the (your own) conclusion, which of the verses is incorrect?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,09:31) DVD,
Sorry I missed that one. How can a dead God raise himself?
So you dispute the claim that Jesus Himself made?Hi DVD,
Can we look at some of those scriptures more closely
Rom 8.11
“But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead, will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you”Who is the HIM? God.
If it was the Spirit then why say “of Him”?The “of Him” belongs to the “who raised Jesus from the dead”
God raised Jesus from the dead as a result of His [God's]Spirit dwelling in him[Jesus] and He[God] will do the same for us if the same Spirit, the Spirit of God, dwells in us. It says that God does the raising and it does not say the Spirit caused the raising of Jesus.
Surely that is plain. There is no separation between God and His Spirit-it is the Spirit of God, not a separate person.John 2
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
The disciples believed him. Why don't you?
Hi DVD, Thank you for showing us two scriptures that say God raised Jesus. There are more
Acts 2.32, 3.15, 3.26, 4.10, 5.30, 10.40, 13.22, 13.33, 13.34, Rom 4.24, 10.9, 1Cor 6.14, 15.15, 2 Cor 4.14, Coll 2.12.[that's 15 so far]And of course it speaks of 'He' who raised Jesus in 2 Cor 4.14, James 5.21, Eph 1.20
Now raising in the past tense is an action done by another and is shown in Christ
“was raised”
Jn 2.22, 21.14, Rom 7.4, 8.34and as “has been raised”
Rom 6.4, 6.9, 7.4, 1Cor 15.12,13,14,16,17,20 and Coll3.1.Jesus spoke of himself too
“after I have been raised”
Mt 26.32
Mk 14.28So we are left with the prophetic verse in Jn 2.19 quoted by evildoers in Matt 26.61 and 27.40. Jesus was filled with the Spirit of God and prophesied his death and resurrection. It was the Father's Spirit speaking through him in prophecy.
I can think of very few facts as clearly shown in scripture -God raised Jesus.
ps God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
You offer three alternatives as to who raised Jesus, DVD. You need to make up your mind. If Jesus raised himself you are denying a lot of scripture.
How can you line them all up? By saying they really are all the same god as a trinity so it doesn't matter which one is given the credit?Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,09:18) Artizan, Nick Hassan, t8
As promised here are my thoughts on Jesus' begetting and His title “Son of God”. Not long ago I believed that Jesus was begotten “in the beginning”, sometime in eternity past. But recently realised that the Bible doesn't substantiate that premise anywhere. I now think that the verses that speak of this act were referencing the incarnation of Christ. I dont have time to fully expand this at the moment so will offer some of the scriptures that have led me to that conclusion. Please bear in mind I am still studying this and have reached only a tentative conclusion. I am open minded and happy to be corrected if I am in error.Quote John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.I find it interesting that John didn't use the word “Son” here in v1. He wrote that the “Word” existed (also see 1 Jn Ch1).
Compare John 1 this with the first part of Luke 1:
Quote Luke 1 (KJV)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Luke 1 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.Luke 1 (NIV)
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.Here Gabriel links the incarnation event with the conference of the title “Son of God”.
I think Psalm 2, and end times prophetic Psalm, refers to the incarnation:
Quote Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten theeThe writer of Hebrews quotes verse 7, and applies it in an interesting way (note the emphasis):
Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Remember that these are things that the Father was said to have spoken to the Son (v8). So He (The Father) said to the Son (Jesus):
I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son. That suggests that Jesus was not yet a Son.
So perhaps what John was trying to tell his readers in Joh 1 and 1 Joh 1 stands, that Jesus existed as the Word but was not yet a Son because He had not been begotten? However, I categorically reject the notion that the Word was merely a thought in the Father's mind and became a being at His incarnation. This relegates the Son to being merely a man, albeit an annointed one. But there are just far too many scriptures that validate His pre-existence.
What do you guys think?
Hi DVD,
There is no doubt that Jesus became the physical Son of God at his conception. God became at that moment his physical Father by the work of God's Spirit.
If you look at Ps 2.7
“I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord;He said to me
'You are my Son, today I have begotten you'”Now, in human terms, if this was said By God to Jesus at his birth or even conception could Jesus have heard it, understood it, and remembered those words?
Hebrews 1.5 also quotes 2 Sam 7.12f, the promise to David
” When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my Name; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be a father to him and he will be a son to me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but my lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you”So this does not describe the action of fathering but the role of fathering which God provides for his Son. It is interesting that fault is not held against the child till he is an adult.
If you say that is all the father/son relationship means then how do you read Job 1. 6-9 2. 1-2 and 38.6-7? Were Satan and the other sons of God preceding the firstborn Son through whom all else was created?
I think there are two dimensions, body and soul/spirit in the sonship..
To WhatIsTrue
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 01 2005,17:19) Do you say that John the Baptist pre-existed also?
He came in the spirit of Elijah and scripture says that Elijah must come again. Whatever that means I do not know for sure, but he was sent by God and the unborn John lept for joy in Elizabeth's womb.
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