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Hi Lk 10.21
” At that time he rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said
'I praise Thee Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and did reveal them to babes. Yes Father, for thus it was pleasing in your sight.
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him”So the Spirit of God in Jesus rejoiced and Jesus praised God for His wisdom. So those who cannot recognise the Father and the Son but see a trinity, do not know the Son as he holds the key.
ps
1Jn 2.20
” But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth but because you do know it because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist;the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father”The Son is not the Father. The Son is not part of the Father.
Three other things are vital:
The Word that we listen and leads to our salvation in Jesus,
The anointing of the Holy Spirit, that teaches from the Word,
and remaining faithful in the teaching of the Word of God.Only then do know we remain in our safe position with the Father and the Son. The Word is the rock on which we build and the Spirit is the mortar of God that assembles us and binds us together as one in Him.
Nick,
When specifically did Jesus become a Son?Quote (Guest @ May 30 2005,20:29) Nick,
When specifically did Jesus become a Son?
Hi DVD,
“In the beginning”-before time.OK. Can I have the verses that specifically prove that Jesus Christ was “begotten” before time please?
Quote (Guest @ May 30 2005,20:58) OK. Can I have the verses that specifically prove that Jesus Christ was “begotten” before time please?
Hi DVD,
I have replied to you on this matter but to remind you there are no verses that say he was begotten in the beginning.We know he existed in the beginning and is the
“only begotten Son”Hi,
Lk 4.18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed, to proclaim the favourable year of the Lord”So the power to preach and set free and heal comes from the Spirit of the Lord in Jesus. How can there be a trinity then?
Hi, 2Cor 3.17f
” But whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. But we all with unveiled faces behold, as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit”So if the Lord is the Spirit how can the Spirit be another person?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2005,21:07) Quote there are no verses that say he was begotten in the beginning.
Thank you. I quite agree.Quote We know he existed in the beginning and is the
“only begotten Son”
Yes, so the issue is: when did He become a Son. I will be posting my thoughts shortly.Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,01:06) Yes, so the issue is: when did He become a Son. I will be posting my thoughts shortly.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.DVD,
You have not answered my main question to you. The most important element of the faith is our understanding of what happened on the cross. Would you care to explain your understanding so that we know exactly what your faith is? Specifically, I would like to know, in your understanding, who died on the cross? Yeshua only, or YHWH? (Or, if you prefer, “Jesus” only, or God?) How you answer this question tells us what you truly believe.
By the way, since you dismissed the first scripture I posted for you, here are some more for you to confront. Apparently, all the NT writers thought that Yeshua was a distinct being from the one they called God. Why don't you?
Quote “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.” – Luke 2:52 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know…” – Acts 2:22
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.” – Acts 5:30
“But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God…” – Acts 7:55
“…that if you confess with your mouth Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” – Romans 10:9
“God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” – 1 Corinthians 1:9
“…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.” – Ephesians 1:17
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” – 1 Timothy 2:5
“I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels…” – 1 Timothy 5:21
“James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…” – James 1:1
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants…” – Revelation 1:1
Nick and T8,
As usual, we disagree. Thanks for your explanations but neither of them address the actual words of YHWH. If YHWH had said simply that He made the universe, then your explanations might make sense, but because He said that He did it “by Himself” and “all alone”, I find it hard to fit more than one person* into His testimony.
(*Trinitarians should take note that I use the phrase “one person”. Where there are three, no one is ever alone.)
T8,
I really wish that you would stop misusing that verse in Proverbs. Throughout the Hebrew scriptures, Israel is called God's son, His firstborn.
Exodus 4:
“22Then you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says YHWH: 'Israel is My son, My firstborn.'”To say that that verse in Proverbs applies to the future Messiah is possible in a spiritual sense, but the answer most certainly at the time that Proverb was written is “Israel”. Read the Torah. Read any of the prophets. That theme comes up over and over again.
Artizan007,
Here's some info for you to consider:
Quote Reasons why monogenes should not be translated as “only begotten”: The word monogenes also appears elsewhere in the New Testament:
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only [monogenes] son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
—Hebrews 11:17-19 (NIV)This time the NIV does not have a footnote with that only begotten as it does for John 3:16, but it's the same Greek word monogenes. To say Isaac was Abraham’s only-begotten son would make no sense since according to the Bible, Abraham begat Ishmael as well as Isaac. But “one of a kind”, “one and only”, or “unique” would fit because Isaac was special. Abraham's wife, Sarah, was too old to have a child but she nevertheless became pregnant.
Dr. James R. White notes:
The key element to remember in deriving the meaning of monogenes is this: it is a compound term, combining monos, meaning only, with a second term. Often it is assumed that the second term is gennasthai/gennao, to give birth, to beget. But note that this family of terms has two nu’s, νν, rather than a single nu, ν, found in monogenes. This indicates that the second term is not gennasthai but gignesthai/ginmai, and the noun form, genos. G. L. Prestige discusses the differences that arise from these two derivations in God in Patristic Thought (London: SPCK, 1952), 37-51, 135-141, 151-156.
Genos means “kind or type”, ginomai is a verb of being. Hence the translations “one of a kind,” “one and only,” “of sole descent.” Some scholars see the -genes element as having a minor impact upon the meaning of the term, and hence see monogenes as a strengthened form of monos, thereby translating it “alone,” “unique,” “incomparable.”
An example of this usage from the LXX is found in Psalm 25:16,
turn to me and be gracious to me,
for I am lonely (monogenes) and afflicted: (NASB)
(White, The Forgotten Trinity [Minneapolis, MN, Bethany House Publishers, 1998], pp. 201-202, fn. 27)Note that the so-called LXX (mentioned above) is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that existed in Jesus' day. Sometimes we can gain insight into Greek New Testament words by how Hebrew words were translated into Greek by the Jewish scholars. In this case, the Hebrew word for lonely was translated into Greek as monogenes. So this helps us justify that monogenes means “alone,” “unique,” or “incomparable.”
Remember that the entire doctrine that Yeshua was “begotten” in heaven before the world began comes from how the word “monogenes” is translated. As Nick has already pointed out, there are no verses in scripture that specifically say that Yeshua was begotten before time began. It's all speculation based on the translation of one word.
Ramblinrose,
Thanks for the support and the websites.
Hi WIT,
Not quite so.One of the most common things said about Jesus is that he was “sent”.The verses in Is 61 quoted by Jesus in the temple is one but there are at least 37 other times in the New Testament where it is said he was “sent”
Now commonsense tells us that if someone is “sent” somewhereThat person is not there now.
That person goes to another place under instructionNow it is possible that the person could be sent as a mewling puking baby or bound and carried to the destination but Jesus gave us an example when he said
“As the Father sent me so I send you”
So he sent his disciples as consenting understanding adults to fulfill a task he had given them.Now when was Jesus sent by the Father and where was he sent?
There is no record of the Father in His heard statements sending Jesus at his baptism or on the mountain. There is no record of his being sent as a child though he knew who his real Father was at 12. There is no record of his being sent at his birth but what would have been the point anyway.
Scripture says he was sent “Into the World”. The record of the sending is in Phil 2. He understood and agreed. So he existed before he entered the world as a being able to hear and understand the message from God.
So what does scripture say about the situation
Jn3.16f
“For God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world ;but that the world should be saved through him”The Son existed but was not in the world.
God sent the Son into the world.
So the Son was begotten before he entered the world.Nick,
Again, you are reading a lot into one word.
John 1:
Quote 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. Do you say that John the Baptist pre-existed also?
In the gospel of John, “Jesus” tells us what he means when he says that he was sent into the world:
John 18:37:
Quote Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” The fact is, Nick, that there is only one birth recorded for the Messiah in scriptures, and it happened on earth. All other assertions about the Messiah being born before time began is speculation, not scripture.
As usual, we disagree, and I suppose that I shall leave it at that.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 31 2005,22:19) Nick, Again, you are reading a lot into one word.
John 1:
Quote 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. Do you say that John the Baptist pre-existed also?
In the gospel of John, “Jesus” tells us what he means when he says that he was sent into the world:
John 18:37:
Quote Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” The fact is, Nick, that there is only one birth recorded for the Messiah in scriptures, and it happened on earth. All other assertions about the Messiah being born before time began is speculation, not scripture.
As usual, we disagree, and I suppose that I shall leave it at that.
No WIT,
Do you suggest we should not examine each word? Even a little word like “of ” or “from ” can contain a lot of meaning in scripture which we ignore to our peril.You have ignored the obvious. Should one scripture about John confound 37 scriptures about Jesus? Is that how you find answers or add confusion? That is not the way of honest exegesis as all have to be considered on their own merits.
All the prophets were sent from God. They are God's messengers to men. Indeed John was sent as the spirit of Elijah from God as confirmed by Jesus.
You also missed the words “I have come INTO the world” and ” that I should bear witness to the truth” in your scripture in Jn 18.37.
That describes a person sent on a mission from outside the world .Nick,
I have news for you. You came into this world too! In fact, we all came into this world at some point or another. (Certainly, you have heard that expression used before.) But none of us pre-existed our human existence.
Honestly Nick, you are building mountainous doctrines on the smallest of words. Important scriptural truths are talked about consistently and explicitly throughout. When you can show me scriptures that talk about Yeshua being begotten before the world began, I will listen. Until then, I will stick with the birth that scripture does talk about.
Hi WIT,
Were you “sent “into the world? I wasn't.
Did you exist in the form of God, and empty your self, being made in the likeness of men?Jesus Christ did. [Phil 2.5-7]
Are you equal to Jesus Christ in your own eyes or the eyes of God?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 31 2005,22:49) Nick, I have news for you. You came into this world too! In fact, we all came into this world at some point or another. (Certainly, you have heard that expression used before.) But none of us pre-existed our human existence.
Honestly Nick, you are building mountainous doctrines on the smallest of words. Important scriptural truths are talked about consistently and explicitly throughout. When you can show me scriptures that talk about Yeshua being begotten before the world began, I will listen. Until then, I will stick with the birth that scripture does talk about.
Hi Wit,
Is 37 times not enough for God to emphasise a point to you?Jesus was sent from the Father in heaven. He ascended again to where he descended from.
I am surprised you are so willing to throw away words in scripture that offend you.
Hey Nick
I came or was born into this world. That does not mean I come from else where. I can be implied but it does not exactly state anything. I dont see that as a ground for your agruement.
WIT, my question to you is: how do you explain Jesus' words:
I am the Bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and died.
Joh 6:50 This is the Bread which comes down from Heaven, so that a man may eat of it and not die.Joh 6:51 I am the Living Bread which came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he shall live forever. And truly the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
WIT,
Some more verses for you to answer:
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
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