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For those who contend that man is not spirit, soul, and body I will give some scripture.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul (psyche) and spirit( pneumatos) , and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit(pneuma) and soul(psyche) and body(soma) be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit(pneuma): and they that worship him must worship him in spirit(pneuma) and in truth. Not in soul.
What is the Soul?
· The soul (pyche or psuche in the Greek) is the combination of faculties that consists of the mind, intellect, will, and emotions. The soul performs rational and intellectual functions. The rational will never capture the wind! This is why we are unable to discern God with our souls alone.
It is also impossible for God to dwell in our souls. One of the reasons for this is that our souls are open to the attack and deception of the enemy. This occurs because quite often our decisions are based on feelings.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Mark 15:39 said that Jesus gave up the ghost, not the soul.Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, (not our soul) that we are the children of God.
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit,
Why too many scriptures across th Old and New Testament that talk about spirit and soul.
I don't care what the arguments there are about the Trinity, who believes it or not. I was saved in a small Baptist church in August 1973. I know without a doubt I had a conversion. The interesting thing is that these people believed in the Trinity. That did not stop me from getting saved nor did it stop God from saving me. I didn't know much about the teachings and didn't for a long time. I can't see spending my time and energy to argue about something that will stop God from saving people. That is what the Gospel is all about, the salvation of mankind. The devil is the one who is called the accuser of the brethren. Yet we will follow in his foot steps just to justify ourselves and make up feel better about what we believe. Like the Pharisees who said they would encompass the world just to make one convert, but not to the truth of the Gospel.
2Ti_3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
What about healing, speaking in tongues, walking in the Spirit, other things that will show our growth and make up pleasing to God. Do you think all this speech about the Trinity will help a person who is going through some tough times, or in need of healing of the body or mind due to loss will benefit from the “yes” or “no” about the Trinity?
I thought this forum was about the Word and those who had insight that would be a help and not a liability to the Gospel or man.
If the Gospel is only about weather or not the Trinity is fact or fiction or, who was or, is Jesus, then you've miss the whole point of getting together and sharing the Word.Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 23 2012,02:59) t8, I will ask you the same question. Have you read my post? Let me show a quote, Quote Read my post, I said I did not believe in 3 separate Gods. The statement above is about man
If you would read it you should have seen that part.
I'm beginning to believe that some people who are on this forum are here to find something to fight about regardless.
What are you talking about. My points are valid points, how about a real answer than another question followed by a dodge.I asked some perfectly valid questions and gave you a perfectly valid test to apply your understanding of the Trinity to. It has nothing to do with what you have said and everything to do with challenging the Trinity Doctrine of which I could challenge any Trinitarian in the same way.
How about giving me an answer. It is not unreasonable to expect an answer from anyone who comes here teaching something. This is a good thing to do.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2012,13:11) And when you are done with those verses, put t8's understanding to the test when God is mentioned in some other verses…substitute 'God' with the word 'Father' and see if t8's understanding passes the test: John 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?].
That is very disingenuous of you LU.I have always maintained since this forum began that THE GOD is by default the Father unless otherwise specified. e.g., the GOD of this age. (NOTE the addition of the word 'OF'.)
And god/theos/elohim (without the definite article) can refer to more than the Father and can include Jesus, man, angel, Satan, and idols.
I have always maintained that, so how about not representing my view in a false way. Please be honest in future, I would appreciate that and it would be better for you to. A win win.
You know that I have pointed out dozens of times, that the last mention of theos in John1:1 does not say 'THE God'. It says 'theos' without the definite article. That changes everything just as 'THE Adam' vs 'adam/man' or 'THE Devil vs devil' does.
Honesty shows a true heart. Misrepresentation shows deception or a lack of understanding. One of these must be what you are doing.
If you are being true to yourself, then you are out of your depth and do not understand what I am saying at which point I strongly suggest that you to debate something you understand before you incur a harsher judgement for teaching something wrong.
Either way, you have made a mistake with your post toward me. You should correct this in some way.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 24 2012,13:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2012,13:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,17:11) John 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?].
That is brilliant, Kathi. So simple, yet I've never thought to use it!
Obviously, if the God the Word was with in John 1:1 was the Father, then the Word could not possibly be the Father, right?
This analogy doesn't help me in my battle against the Trinitarians, but it sure helps against people like Ed, Kerwin, Gene, and others who understand 1:1 to be teaching that God was His own Word that He was with.
Glad you find it helpful!
theos is not translated as father. But 'THE THEOS' works, even if it said 'THE God of Lies' which would be 'THE Father of Lies'. The key there is OF and THE.Many do not understand what a profound effect 'THE' can have and as a result, they make many fundamental errors in interpretting scripture. In English it also has a profound effect. Calling someone 'THE angel' is different to saying 'you are an angel'. The latter could be applied to a human for example. The difference is identifying someone vs qualifying someone or describing their nature.
This might be above LU's head, but her lack of understanding or deceptive representation to me shows that she is lacking either way. This does not reflect well on her doctrine.
If Jesus lacked similar understanding, or misquoted the Pharisees intentionally to make them look bad, then Jesus teachings would have suffered as a result of his actions. Knowing that he lived perfectly, we can trust his teaching all the more.
t8,
apekriqh Qwmav kai eipen autw, O kuriov mou kai o qeov mou.
This verse is John 20:28, it has your definite article with qeov, 'o qeov' and refers to Jesus as “the God of me” when literally translated. So unless you admit that Jesus is also identified as 'the God' of Christians then you are not being honest.Also, the Father is the God of this age.
Pay attention LU.
Did I not say to you that when you see a term THE GOD with the definite article and without OF, that it defaults to YHWH unless the context is already talking about another identity such as an idol etc.
Also, you may not be aware, but this verse can equally be interpreted as The Lord of me and the God of me as referring to Jesus and the Father which would be a natural thing to say as giving glory to God.
If you think that is a silly view, then explain why not giving the Father glory in this situation is silly. It is absolutely a reasonable way to read what happened.
We see this type of confession time and time again in scripture. e.g., May the love of God and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ”, or “I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ”.
See that.
Your example is very weak. If that is the best you can do, then you just failed.
Like the Trinitarians before you, you rely on verses that could be read in more than one way, and choose the way that suits your doctrine, rather than the way that compliments the rest of scripture.
And as for you saying that Jesus or the Father is the God of this age, then you are very much mistaken.
God is not the ruler of this world. Rather God warns us to not be of the world. We are warned that if we love the world, then the love of the Father is not in us.
You err again. Once you accept false doctrine to the point of teaching it, it is like leaven in the dough. It works its way into the whole batch eventually.
MY POINT EXACTLY
I have stated several times that i don't believe in 3 separate Gods and even quoting my self
Quote I don't care what the arguments there are about the Trinity, who believes it or not. I was saved in a small Baptist church in August 1973. I know without a doubt I had a conversion. The interesting thing is that these people believed in the Trinity. That did not stop me from getting saved nor did it stop God from saving me
People on this forum are fixated with changing each other about the Trinity, but it will not interfere with God saving people. People don't have to be schooled on weather there is a Trinity in order to be saved.
Is your view about the Trinity more important to others than healing when they are sick? Is changing there minds about the Trinity going to save the sick? Why not get over it. If you don't believe the same way your neighbor does, is it right to condemn them and put yourself up as more superior than them. You are puffed up in your knowledge making yourself above others.
Get together on the fact that Jesus is the Son on God and He came into the world to save sinners. You will get more converts than arguing about stuff that will not make a difference.
Agree to disagree. Move on to other things. I gave my view point and don't need to defend it to anyone. I will be judged by God as you will.Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 24 2012,23:02) Agree to disagree.
Hi Rich,Can't do that, for that is to agree to a lie.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEdJ,
Quote Hi Rich, Can't do that, for that is to agree to a lie.
I did not say to agree with them, just agree that you disagree and spend more time on other things about the Word.
I do not believe in 3 Gods, but why frustrate the Grace of God in them over that matter. Like I said, I was saved in a small Baptist church that believed in the Trinity. If they were so wrong and living a lie, why did God save me through their ministry?
If God had your mentality He would be zapping a lot of people more often than before Grace came.
Remember what Jesus said to the disciples in, Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of SPIRIT, I made sure this is visible so I can say that Jesus did not say what kind of man ye are) ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save.Hi Rich, and as I told you before there is some element of truth in both positions.
G. The Trins see God as three…
<– An incomplete pictureF. The non-Trins see God as One…
<– An incomplete picture
<– The complete picture “And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth:” (Rev 21:16)
Rev.21:2-3 And I John saw the HOLY CITY=117, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men (Is.60:14), and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
AND GOD HIMSELF=117 shall be with them, and be “their God”=86 (YHVH=63). (Link)
(86=[אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63)Ezek 43:16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.
“To him that overcometh (
) will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I(יהשוע) also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” (Rev 3:21-22)Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
but fellowcitizens ( ) with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. (Eph 2:19-22)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
(Trinity and non-Trinity, can both views be correct?)Quote (t8 @ Oct. 24 2012,00:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2012,13:11) And when you are done with those verses, put t8's understanding to the test when God is mentioned in some other verses…substitute 'God' with the word 'Father' and see if t8's understanding passes the test: John 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?].
That is very disingenuous of you LU.I have always maintained since this forum began that THE GOD is by default the Father unless otherwise specified. e.g., the GOD of this age. (NOTE the addition of the word 'OF'.)
And god/theos/elohim (without the definite article) can refer to more than the Father and can include Jesus, man, angel, Satan, and idols.
I have always maintained that, so how about not representing my view in a false way. Please be honest in future, I would appreciate that and it would be better for you to. A win win.
You know that I have pointed out dozens of times, that the last mention of theos in John1:1 does not say 'THE God'. It says 'theos' without the definite article. That changes everything just as 'THE Adam' vs 'adam/man' or 'THE Devil vs devil' does.
Honesty shows a true heart. Misrepresentation shows deception or a lack of understanding. One of these must be what you are doing.
If you are being true to yourself, then you are out of your depth and do not understand what I am saying at which point I strongly suggest that you to debate something you understand before you incur a harsher judgement for teaching something wrong.
Either way, you have made a mistake with your post toward me. You should correct this in some way.
t8,
That was not even the full post that was quoted. I believe your 'trinity' test is biased. The trinitiarians can substitute the word 'God' with the Father, or with the Son, or with the Holy Spirit. They should not be limited to 'the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit' or 'the trinity.'Also, your comments about Thomas saying to Jesus “the Lord of me and the God of me” as to include the Father has to be forced and biased. The context is showing a 'eureka' moment when Thomas believes something NEW. He already believed that Jesus was Lord/master and in God the Father, but after seeing Jesus in His resurrected body, Thomas' belief soared to believing Jesus as his God.
To the Jew, two powers in heaven as YHWH in the OT was an accepted belief. That is why they could accept Jesus as the second 'Power' and worship Him.
Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,02:02) MY POINT EXACTLY
I have stated several times that i don't believe in 3 separate Gods and even quoting my self
Quote I don't care what the arguments there are about the Trinity, who believes it or not. I was saved in a small Baptist church in August 1973. I know without a doubt I had a conversion. The interesting thing is that these people believed in the Trinity. That did not stop me from getting saved nor did it stop God from saving me
People on this forum are fixated with changing each other about the Trinity, but it will not interfere with God saving people. People don't have to be schooled on weather there is a Trinity in order to be saved.
Is your view about the Trinity more important to others than healing when they are sick? Is changing there minds about the Trinity going to save the sick? Why not get over it. If you don't believe the same way your neighbor does, is it right to condemn them and put yourself up as more superior than them. You are puffed up in your knowledge making yourself above others.
Get together on the fact that Jesus is the Son on God and He came into the world to save sinners. You will get more converts than arguing about stuff that will not make a difference.
Agree to disagree. Move on to other things. I gave my view point and don't need to defend it to anyone. I will be judged by God as you will.
Here are some points that I have extrapolated from your post.1) You are making this out to be a salvation issue from us. It is not. I believe I was saved when I believed in the Trinity and I believe I am saved now.
2) You are now wanting to move on and continue believing this doctrine even though you have had some good evidence that it is false doctrine. This means that you seem to have a careless attitude toward this.
3) We are not trying to get converts per se, we are simply testing all things as the Bereans did. That is the main purpose of this forum. People will believe what they want to believe and it is certainly good when you meet people who love the truth that much that they are willing to change to conform to it. Regardless all things need to be challenged and all things will be made subject to Christ whether you know this or not.
4) You are going on like we are fixated on this. Who started the topic? And who defended the false teaching? Is it not written: 'hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it'.
5) Like many here, when they are shown the truth they often leave, ask to move on, or ignore it. That shows up the person heart. I like this saying which sums it up:
“An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.
A truth seeker is a person who seeks Jesus because Jesus is the truth. If truth is not important to a person, then nor is Jesus important to that person.
6) You say to you don't need to defend your view point. When you put it out there in public as the truth, then yes you do. And it is good for you that it is tested and it is good for others that they see that false teaching or views are challenged in the light of scripture, lest they believe what you say and you become a stumbling block to them.
Life and death are in the tongue. Perhaps you underestimate how important words are. The true faith is not a game and nor is it a 'whatever' moment.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2012,10:52) t8,
That was not even the full post that was quoted. I believe your 'trinity' test is biased. The trinitiarians can substitute the word 'God' with the Father, or with the Son, or with the Holy Spirit. They should not be limited to 'the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit' or 'the trinity.'
You are free to change the meaning when you see fit. That is your decision. I decide to show respect for the scriptures instead. A person who cares for their own opinion can substitute whatever they want and they do. Some people think God is a mere alien who genetically modified humanity from his own DNA crossed with a cro-magnon. Hence being made in his image and yet being ape like.You are doing no better than that and you disrespect the Father. A person who has not the son has not the Father and vice versa. Your doctrine makes them all to be YHWH, so Yeshua and Yahweh are the same.
God to you is what wave you happen to be tossed about on. Your decision.
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 25 2012,10:52) Hi Rich, and as I told you before there is some element of truth in both positions. G. The Trins see God as three…
<– An incomplete pictureF. The non-Trins see God as One…
<– An incomplete picture <– The complete picture “And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth:” (Rev 21:16)
Rev.21:2-3 And I John saw the HOLY CITY=117, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men (Is.60:14), and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
AND GOD HIMSELF=117 shall be with them, and be “their God”=86 (YHVH=63). (Link)
(86=[אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63)Ezek 43:16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.
“To him that overcometh (
) will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I(יהשוע) also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” (Rev 3:21-22)Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
but fellowcitizens ( ) with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. (Eph 2:19-22)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
(Trinity and non-Trinity, can both views be correct?)
Oh don't tell me we now have a Quadrinity?Ha ha.
Kathi = Binity
RichT = Trinity
EdJ = QuadrinityAlright the Quinity is still up for grabs, who wants the honour of being the first “Quintarian?
I guess that humanity from his own nature just cannot accept that YHWH our Elohim is one and instead need to change the truth for a lie and say that he is binune, triune, or quadune.
Well what a laughing stock we have here.
Hi T8, that makes a pattern of “FIVE”, not of four. (Link)
God's Signature
Proof of God=117
GOD(26) → The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74) → The LORD JEHOVAH(151)יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote People on this forum are fixated with changing each other about the Trinity, but it will not interfere with God saving people. People don't have to be schooled on weather there is a Trinity in order to be saved. Hi.
Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John, spoke of an apostasy that was developing where false teachers and false beliefs would spread like gangrene and weeds. Either God is a trinity or he is not. If not knowing or understanding the identity of God and Jesus are highly important, then what is?What is the minimum that we have to know about God, to be saved?
Quote (david @ Oct. 25 2012,10:39) Hi. Either God is a trinity or he is not.
Hi David,Having trouble believing both views are true?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgSorry Edj, are you saying you are a Quinitarian or are you saying you are a Quadatarian.
Sorry if I got the wrong number for you, it is hard to keep up with all new developments. I will rehash my list if you are a 5 and not a 4. And I will offer the other number to someone else, so we can have people representing a God that is one person through to 5. Then we can all have the mother of all debates and hopefully we all laugh so hard that the 2's through to 5's see how ridiculous they are and if not, we will laugh anyway.
t8,
Quote 1) You are making this out to be a salvation issue from us. It is not. I believe I was saved when I believed in the Trinity and I believe I am saved now.
NO, if you read and understood what I was saying was that I had no schooling or any info about the Trinity. Only that Jesus died for my sins. I did not get saved because I believed in the Trinity or that I didn't believe in the Trinity.Quote 2) You are now wanting to move on and continue believing this doctrine even though you have had some good evidence that it is false doctrine. This means that you seem to have a careless attitude toward this.
NO again. I wanted to move on to the thought about 1John 5:7 and, (in light of 1Thes. 5:23), and get away to an endless debate that no one will move from. It's false to you maybe. There are many people who would say you believe in a false doctrine. Have you noticed that you are quick to condemn me and others that don't agree with you?Quote Remember what Jesus said to the disciples in, Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of SPIRIT, I made sure this is visible so I can say that Jesus did not say what kind of man ye are) ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save.[/QUOTE]4) You are going on like we are fixated on this. Who started the topic? And who defended the false teaching?
Quote
I started this to speak of what I saw through the scriptures, not to be PRO or CON about 3 Gods. My findings were “that it gives me a better understanding of God when I see Father, Word, and Spirit” It's like, (as an example) I am a father, husband, salesman. All are true about me. And yet what am I constantly challenged about? Weather there is 3 Gods or not and find harsh words to me that I believe in a false doctrine etc.6) You say to you don't need to defend your view point. When you put it out there in public as the truth, then yes you do. And it is good for you that it is tested and it is good for others that they see that false teaching or views are challenged in the light of scripture, lest they believe what you say and you become a stumbling block to them.
Quote
A stumbling block??Life and death are in the tongue. Perhaps you underestimate how important words are. The true faith is not a game and nor is it a 'whatever' moment.
Quote
I am beginning to see what you are. You don't know what manner of spirit you are. You are willing to command fire down on all who don't bow down to your bullying words.
I posted some scriptures about man and spirit, soul, and body and yet you don't challenge them, but go right back to the Trinity. Your condemning words to me about being a false teacher etc. shows your heart and how haughty you are.I will say that if you pray and ask God to command fire down on me He will say NO.
david,
What is the minimum that we have to know about God, to be saved?[QUOTE]
How about quoting Paul in 1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know ANY THING among you, SAVE Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
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