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To DVD,
Jn 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.It says that he was with God and many think it also says that he was that God, but that is not the case. It is true that there was just God, but he begat from himself the word that was in himself so that the Word was with God. That Word is Christ and this did not diminish the word and power that was in God himself.
Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D) wrote the following:
For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him”.DVD, I think that you are saying that the Word (Jesus) came in the flesh, but that Jesus came from God. If so then I agree. But I think you might also be saying that Jesus is that God he came from and perhaps you believe that God came in flesh if this is your belief?
Most who hold this view use John 1:1 to prove this doctrine, but John 1:1 one doesn't teach this. John made it clear that his teachings in the book of John were for the following reason and conclusion:
John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2005,22:43) He was not the “light” but he came to testify about the”light”.
Sorry,
My error. These words relate to John the baptist and not Jesus.
Jesus is the “Light of men”Quote (t8 @ May 29 2005,02:06) But God has a nature and he shares his nature. So Yeshua is a divine being in that he has the fullness of God's nature and we too have the promise of partaking of the divine nature. Scripture says that it is a mystery to what we will become, but that we will be like him.
Hi t8,
Just a clarification. Are you speaking of Yeshua before he was born and before he was was filled with God's Spirit?
I think that is what Phil 2.6 refers to
“Christ Jesus..who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself..”Rather than Coll 2.9
” For in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form..” which refers to God living in him by His Spirit after be was baptised in water and the Spirit.I would like your opinion here and also what he divested himself of before he came
?power
?glory
or was it his own divine nature?Hi Nick,
I think it is his nature, glory, power, and priviledge that he was emptied of, after all he took on human nature and he was totally dependant on God for everything. He even learnt obedience from this experience. For we know that there are different glories for different bodies and certainly in his heavenly form, Christ would be the most glorious and godly visible being. But as a man he looked just like us.
I am not aware of a scripture that says outright that he emptied himself of his nature, but he did empty himself and became a man. One would assume that we have one nature or the other. If we have human nature then we are men (mankind) if we have divine nature, then we are gods, but if we had both at the same time, would we not have 2 bodies?
Jesus not only become like us (partook of the flesh) but he was also tempted in every way as we are. So he certainly can relate to us in every way which is a comforting thought. But I suppose if he had divine nature (as a man) then he could have relied on that nature to get him through the tempations, but it appears that his victory was evident by the fact that he relied on God for everything, not himself.
What we can be sure of is that he was a divine being in Heaven and is now. But when he walked the earth he was certainly a man like us. The tricky part is did he still have God's nature within him while he was a man. Part man, part divine, or fully man and fully divine. Perhaps that part is not too important as it doesn't appear to be a major theme in scripture from what I can see. I could be wrong.
I suppose it would be good to find out if being divine means having the Spirit of God, because if that is so, then he was certainly filled with God's Spirit at his baptism, that is certainly clear. But I think that spirit and nature are different. For we can have the Spirit of God and human nature at the same time. The book of Romans talks a lot about the war between flesh and the Spirit. But one day we will discard this human nature that weighs us down and be transformed into the likeness of Christ, even in bodily form. It is then that our born-again spirits will be in a compatible home. I would think that this is the moment that we have divine nature, when we have a spirtual body that is made in the likeness of Christ himself.
Either way we look at it, Christ was divine and is divine now. He humbled himself and became a man. He was then filled with God's Spirit and preached the Kingdom. Finally he was killed and God raised him back to life and the glory that he had with God before he partook of the flesh. I certainly do not have all the answers, but what I have said in this paragraph is what I can be sure of as it is clearly taught in scripture.
Can you add insight here.
Quote (Guest @ May 29 2005,04:43) http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-text-triadic.htm#refute
Intellectual presumptions and hopeful derivations DVD,
Jesus never said there was a trinity-because there isn't.It is amazing,
God reaches out to the Israelites and makes a covenant with them. He shows them how to obey and worship Him and guides and protects them. He sends them prophets and kings and shows them His love and power.Then He sends His son, filled with His Spirit, to build a bridge of reconciliation with them and to open the door to the whole world to find salvation in him. He equipped servants to spread that message and sent them around the world. Barely had he died and returned to the Father than wolves entered the flock.
They brought in spin doctors to befuddle and confuse the flock.They drew new conclusions on every aspect of relating to God and preached them rather than the Word. They decided the Son had to be part of the God that sent Him and then defined the Spirit as another person.
Each new theological diversion was followed by more backslapping and celebration as they destroyed the simple faith of true believers. They set their own course looking askance at anyone who questioned the new orthodoxy.
They changed God's name to trinity but were less helpful on dealing with the practical aspects of this change. Suddenly relating to God became difficult again and the bible became only a side salad as men founded their new, tidy but powerless, religions based on their new “discoveries” about God.
Nobody feared God, or the consequences of their actions, and they attacked those who tried to cling to the simple message. Religion is much easier to manage if the power of God is not allowed to intrude.
I believe it is time to find again that fear of God before he deals with His faithless so called servants.
DVD
Acts 20.28 the footnote in my NIV Study Bible says of this verse: his own blood. Lit. “The blood of his own one”' a term of endearment (such as “his own dear one” referring to his own Son.
Just what the scholars who wrote the NIV have stated there about this verse.
Hope you had a good day.
From earlier posts.
An answer to John 1:3
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html….&pid=86An answer to Col w:13-17
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html….pid=128
An answer to Heb 1:2-3
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html….pid=137Answers to other Verses:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=109Quote (Ramblinrose @ May 29 2005,09:17) From earlier posts. An answer to John 1:3
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html….&pid=86An answer to Col w:13-17
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html….pid=128
An answer to Heb 1:2-3
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html….pid=137Answers to other Verses:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=109
Hi RR,
And white is black-from certain viewpoints and with certain heavily tinted glasses on .
Naah . Simple is better.Nick,
Whilst you may not be searching, others are and may find these writings of great value.
The last post opens up a page for: 'Verses that Trinitarians Use to Try to Support the Doctrine of the Trinity'. The first three are contained in that page with others.I stand with WhatIsTrue – Only YHWH created:
Isaiah 44:24
Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am YHWH, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.”Isaiah 45:18 For thus says YHWH, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am YHWH, and there is no other.
Hi RR,
It is precisely that they are searching that I reply because you are suggesting that they go down a dark alley where truth is not to be found.
Prov 7.6-27Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2005,05:24) Quote (Guest @ May 29 2005,04:43) http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-text-triadic.htm#refute
Intellectual presumptions and hopeful derivations DVD,
Jesus never said there was a trinity-because there isn't.
Nick,
I didnt post that link.Quote (t8 @ May 29 2005,05:09) Hi Nick, I think it is his nature, glory, power, and priviledge that he was emptied of, after all he took on human nature and he was totally dependant on God for everything. He even learnt obedience from this experience. For we know that there are different glories for different bodies and certainly in his heavenly form, Christ would be the most glorious and godly visible being. But as a man he looked just like us.
I am not aware of a scripture that says outright that he emptied himself of his nature, but he did empty himself and became a man. One would assume that we have one nature or the other. If we have human nature then we are men (mankind) if we have divine nature, then we are gods, but if we had both at the same time, would we not have 2 bodies?
Jesus not only become like us (partook of the flesh) but he was also tempted in every way as we are. So he certainly can relate to us in every way which is a comforting thought. But I suppose if he had divine nature (as a man) then he could have relied on that nature to get him through the tempations, but it appears that his victory was evident by the fact that he relied on God for everything, not himself.
What we can be sure of is that he was a divine being in Heaven and is now. But when he walked the earth he was certainly a man like us. The tricky part is did he still have God's nature within him while he was a man. Part man, part divine, or fully man and fully divine. Perhaps that part is not too important as it doesn't appear to be a major theme in scripture from what I can see. I could be wrong.
I suppose it would be good to find out if being divine means having the Spirit of God, because if that is so, then he was certainly filled with God's Spirit at his baptism, that is certainly clear. But I think that spirit and nature are different. For we can have the Spirit of God and human nature at the same time. The book of Romans talks a lot about the war between flesh and the Spirit. But one day we will discard this human nature that weighs us down and be transformed into the likeness of Christ, even in bodily form. It is then that our born-again spirits will be in a compatible home. I would think that this is the moment that we have divine nature, when we have a spirtual body that is made in the likeness of Christ himself.
Either way we look at it, Christ was divine and is divine now. He humbled himself and became a man. He was then filled with God's Spirit and preached the Kingdom. Finally he was killed and God raised him back to life and the glory that he had with God before he partook of the flesh. I certainly do not have all the answers, but what I have said in this paragraph is what I can be sure of as it is clearly taught in scripture.
Can you add insight here.
Hi t8,
Yes. Interesting. I think if we say as the bible does that Jesus was exactly like us then he had a soul and a spirit, and took on flesh too. He would have been influenced by the strong pull of the flesh of the outer man just like us.I suggest he became aware of his heavenly soul origin[logos]as he grew up so that by the age of twelve in the temple scene he knew who his real father was. His mother Mary certainly knew his origins and they had been confirmed by Elizabeth and by Simeon and Anna in the temple. She may have shared these things with him to teach him of his origins.
Do we know if he had a heavenly body prior to his visit to earth? We do know from 1Cor 15 when he returns he has a heavenly body but if was begotten as the image of the Father perhaps he did not have a body then?
Hi,
In Stephen's Spirit filled speech in Acts 7 he mentioned God 18 times and “The Most High” once.It seems a simple question but who was he speaking about?
Did the Jews know Who he meant?
Did he even have to specify it was the Father or did everyone know who was meant when he spoke of God?He also spoke of “the righteous one “whom they had betrayed and murdered. Who was that?
Was there any question he was talking about the same God?
it was a perfect time to mention some new revelation that God was a conjoint being but did he?Then he said he saw “the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God”
Is the teaching of the New Testament showing here any new features about the God the Jews knew? Is the Son of God the Father God or part of the Father?
So why believe men and not God?
Quote (t8 @ May 29 2005,02:06) Hi Artizan007, Regarding your post where you inquired about the essence of God and Yeshua, I thought it would be good to say the following:
God is Spirit and he is the God of all, even the God of Yeshua.
Yeshua is the prototype (pro-tot-ok'-os). So he was the first to come from God. That makes him a derivative or an image of the original. Of course we were created in God's image and God's image is Yeshua. Yet Yeshua is not created, he was begotten (monogeniés) and all that was created came from God and through Christ.But God has a nature and he shares his nature. So Yeshua is a divine being in that he has the fullness of God's nature and we too have the promise of partaking of the divine nature. Scripture says that it is a mystery to what we will become, but that we will be like him.
So God become a Father when he begat a son in his own likeness, so the Son is like God in many ways. He is the most like God of any being as he is the original image, the prototype of all the images.
That is why it is written that God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of man and man is the head of the woman. We can also see that the woman came from man and man came from God who created all things through Christ. So in some ways we can understand in a very limited capacity how Christ relates to God by looking at the way that woman relates to man in that she came from him and is like him.
Women and men are human and wo-man means from man. We both have the same nature, that is human nature. So it is with God who begat a son with his own nature. So that Yeshua is a godly being; he is divine in nature. Yet the Father is not only divine in nature but he that divinity in identity, he is the Divine as opposed to being divine. In other words He is the originator of that nature. So we have one God (Elohim, Theos) who begats gods (elohim, theos). We are gods because we are his offspring.
Similarly Adam is the man (son of man) and he begat through Eve, beings of his nature that is mankind. But Adam is not just man in nature but also in identity. He was/is the original man, the son of man. He is 'the man' so to speak, not just a man. However due to Adam's disobedience, Yeshua is the new son of man, so that all in Adam will die, but all in Christ shall live. We are no longer modelled after Adam, but after Christ himself who is the firstborn.
So God the Father is still the original and Most High God and always will be. It is also clear that Yeshua is the firstborn and always will be. Both are divine, but one is the originator and the other the recipent. One is the original and the other is His image. One is the Father and the other his son.
Good stuff t8,
It is interesting that it is not written that God blew the breath of life into the woman. So the life of woman is surely derived completely from that life given to man.Man lost nothing when woman was taken from his side but she remains a part of Adam's flesh. Thus marriage restores the natural flesh union.
What do you think?
Yes it could be that the breath of God came from Adam as it doesn't say that God breathed into her nostrils. But it could also be that he did. I suppose the lack of detail doesn't mean we can prove it either way.
When we are created we are knitted into our mothers womb. Does God breathe into us at that point, or is the breath of God passed on from our parents?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2005,18:02) Do we know if he had a heavenly body prior to his visit to earth? We do know from 1Cor 15 when he returns he has a heavenly body but if was begotten as the image of the Father perhaps he did not have a body then?
My guess is that he had a body as he returned to the glory that he had with God. Before creation however he may have been Spirit, I cannot be sure. Yes he was the Logos before creation, but what form he would have been is a mystery to me.But I would think that once creation was in place and the angels were created, he would have been in visible form and seated on the Fathers throne ruling all creation on behalf of his Father. After all creation at that point needed a ruler just as it does now.
But as it is written we see through a glass dimly and because of that I can only speculate at this point.
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