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DVD,
You find one poorly translated scripture and are prepared to throw out the whole salvation message of the Son of God? I do not think such a structure would stand up in a breeze.
So is Jesus his own Father?
Did the Father die on the cross?
Did the Father then raise Himself
Why did God bother with this whole Father /Son thing if there was only God all along??
Or is there really no Father and Son?Poorly translated? Prove it. Tell me Nick, when exactly was Jesus begotten?
That is not the point DVD,
The point is that salvation is through Jesus Christ. He is the only way to the Father. He is the intermediary betwen God and man. None of these scriptural facts can be true is your premise that Jesus is his own Father is true.
Your theory strikes at the heart of the message Christ was sent by God to bring. You cannot find salvation except by following the way of Jesus so why fiddle with trivia if salvation is at stake? You may find the odd trinket digging through the rubbish tip but it is wiser to seek gold in a proven mine surely.
Why deny the Word of God? Why deny what Jesus said about his Father and himself. Are you wiser and stronger than they?I repeat:
1. Poorly translated? Prove it.
2. Tell me Nick, when exactly was Jesus begotten?DVD,
I guess you want to show me scriptures Jesus was begotten when he was born. That is one meaning but does not explain how he was the 'only begotten' Son of God who was with God in the beginning.What is hard to understand about the alternative manuscript translation? Did God die?
Quote (Guest @ May 28 2005,09:36) You know someones grasping at straws when they start quoting footnotes. There is another, more legitimate, answer;
Jesus is God.
Hi DVD,
If you search the bible you will find such footnotes quite rare. They indicate there are definite alternatives to the translation given evidenced in the original manuscripts.The same verse also has an alternative use of “church of the Lord” for “church of God”.So how should we approach these things? All versions should be honestly considered.As well the Holy Spirit will give us guidance as to which is likely to be correct by reminding us of other evidence shown us of the truth in the bible. We should not hesitate to make our own choice based on these likelihoods.
Would it be wise to make alternative doctrinal assumptions on the basis of that one verse that may contradict the rest of scripture? No. God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
Quote (Guest @ May 28 2005,09:16) Nick,
My point is (you obviously missed it); The New Testament categorically states that Jesus sends the prophets, and it doesnt matter whether you apply Matthew's or Luke's account of the discourse. The Old Testament categorically states that it is YaHWeY sends them. Can you explain this please?
No DVD,
I will show you again what is the difference.
Luke 11.49 starts with
“For this reason also the wisdom of God said 'I will send to them prophets….”
Now was this a funny way of saying Jesus has said he will send them prophets?
No.
Jesus is explaining the wisdom of God his Father.DVD, Heb 4:11 says the word of God is living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Sounds to me like there are many things that are {of God} and do a job that in our terms would not apply to that word used. How can a word be living, active, piercing and dividing or a discerner of the thoughts or intents of the heart. (But we all know that is what God's word is and does). So too, I believe that the wisdom of God as all my versions state can be used to usher in what God is wanting to do. It is not Jesus but God’s wisdom.
Wisdom here is stated as follows:
sophia
sof-ee'-ah
From G4680; wisdom (higher or lower, worldly or spiritual): – wisdom.This is not saying Jesus it that wisdom, but wisdom that is of God… In God’s wisdom he said, I will send…
I know the message is not a good translation but it says it differently to help :
(MSG) That accounts for God's Wisdom saying, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, but they'll kill them and run them off.'I enjoy all views as it is helping me to seek the word and see what I really find. Thanks for your thoughts.
One question in all this that still puzzles me, is this:
If Yeshua was begotten of God in the beginning as is stated and or implied in John 1:1-3 and Hebrews 1:5, 5:5; a conclusion – only when putting the two scriptures side by side, then surely or in terms of how scriptural laws of begetting are set, Jesus would be Godlike or at least of the same essence.
What is the scriptural principle: Like begat like, each after their own kind/flesh… Now I know that God is spirit and not flesh, but does this law apply to the spiritual world as well? If not, then why? – is there another principle in the Word of God that states otherwise?
If Yeshua is from the bosom of the Father then why is he not the same essence of the Father? For eg: I am my father's son, I am begotten and I am part of mankind, just like my father is, even though we are two different men. Eve was part of mankind even though she was different in look and make up to Adam who she came from – is this a possible way to explain how Jesus and the Father can be different but still of the same and how the Father is the head cause Yeshua came from him.
I believe they are two separate Spirits, they both have a spirit, and both have a will, and so if Spirit has the possibility to beget then surely it must beget Spirit. Is that not in keeping with the laws of God? Like begets like.
If Yeshua is not of the same essence then how can he be the only begotten Son of God. When you say he his not God the Father, I totally agree… there is too much evidence in the word to see this to be true. But if you say he is a lesser God then surely he could not have been begotten or come from that God's bosom. It does not make logical sense for what comes from one family will be of the same family, surely.
If he is lower than God in terms of essence, as you say then surely he could not have come from the bosom of the Father – according to this principle.
And when I study the word or phrase begotten in the passages where it is used of the Christ. It is not a begetting that I feel you are stating but one of being born, only born, to beget bear etc… none of these words say that of being taken out from or out of: as far as I can see, rather all seem to state that of being birthed. My questioning leads me to think that the term [begotten] is used of his earthly existence and not of his ‘in the beginning’ existence.
G3439, monogeniés, only born, that is, sole: only (begotten, child)
G1080 genna_
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: – bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.G4416 pr_totokos
pro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): – firstbegotten (-born).G313
anagenna_
an-ag-en-nah'-o
From G303 and G1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again): – beget, (bear) X again.G4416
pr_totokos
pro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): – firstbegotten (-born).I will keep seeking and learning but this is something that I have not been able to work through as of yet. As always any thoughts on this matter will be considered as I seek to understand His scripture given to us.
Quote (t8 @ May 28 2005,11:39) DVD, Who came in the flesh?
Jesus Christ, the Word, came in the flesh:Jn 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Quote (Guest @ May 28 2005,09:16) Nick,
My point is (you obviously missed it); The New Testament categorically states that Jesus sends the prophets, and it doesnt matter whether you apply Matthew's or Luke's account of the discourse. The Old Testament categorically states that it is YaHWeY sends them. Can you explain this please?
Hi DVD,
Matt 23.34
“Therefore behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes…so that upon you may fall all the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth…all these things will come on this generation”This scripture reinforces the message of Lk 11.49 as God gives multiple witnesses to important matters. Both do not just refer to the past but both refer also to the time he was speaking. He was informing that generation they would be held accountable though they claimed they were innocent.
Prophecy did not cease with the death of Jesus. Jesus said all authority had been given him in heaven and on earth when he sent his disciples to continue his work. Did he always have that authority? No. He had been given it by His Father so he cannot always have had it. And he was under the Father's authority himself.
So could this scripture also apply to the ability of Jesus to send out prophets? Of course. He had the authority. He was the head of the body. The final fruit of muder had to be borne by the spirit of the Whore of Babylon which is antichrist, the seeds of which were here evident in his lifetime.
Hi A7,
The confusion arises from the fact that “only begotten”[mongenes] is quite different from the word “begotten”[yalad]. In English they seem so alike but clearly they contain quite different depths of meaning.That is why C.S.Lewis [“like begets like”]is too simplistic. Jesus was “begotten” of the Spirit and Mary as flesh, but also the “only begotten” as his soul and spirit[Logos]from the Father alone.We do not know everything about how similar the Logos is to God. We do not understand the dimensions of God as Spirit. Yes the Logos was spirit. He revealed the Father to us and said anyone who sees him has seen the Father. He is the exact reflection of the Father according to Heb 1. He too was originally of his own divine nature as Logos Phil 2 tells us.
A drop of water is the same in some ways to a lake but different too.
Hydrogen is derived from water but not the same.
A mirror, or a photo, shows you what you look like, but only in two dimensions and not three.I hope this helps.
Hey Nick
Please show me from the scripture verses that say both of those concepts you have just stated. ie: the two different types of betetting.
I know there is a difference in wording as i can see that there are four or five different ways to describe this word begotten.
I cannot read Hebrew so please send me some scriptures to look at both ideas you have mentioned – as i cannot find any that state he was begotten by God in the beginning.
Many thanks and enjoy your day.
I think you could make a case for “wisdom of God” being a title of Christ Jesus (see below NT scriptures). Later patristic commentators understood it clearly of Jesus. See Hippolytus, Frg. in Prov (PG 10.628); Cyprian, Testim. 2.2 (CSEL 3.64). H. Conzelmann (Theology, 110 n. 1).
1 Cor 1:24,
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.1 Cor 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:1 Cor 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our gloryCol 2:2,3
2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.Perhaps Luke alluding to the implications of 7:35; 11:31?
Luke 7:35
34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! 35But wisdom is justified of all her children.Luke 11:31
31The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.Also, doesn’t Matthew 23:34 make it clear to you exactly who sent the prophets. Matthew, skilled in shorthand, was likely there taking notes verbatum.
Nick,
I’m still waiting for:1. proof that Acts 20:28 has been poorly translated
2. An answer to when you think Jesus was begottenQuote (Artizan007 @ May 28 2005,22:03) Hey Nick Please show me from the scripture verses that say both of those concepts you have just stated. ie: the two different types of betetting.
I know there is a difference in wording as i can see that there are four or five different ways to describe this word begotten.
I cannot read Hebrew so please send me some scriptures to look at both ideas you have mentioned – as i cannot find any that state he was begotten by God in the beginning.
Many thanks and enjoy your day.
Hi A7 and DVD,
It is not said as you put it. We only see written that “The Word” was “with God” “in the beginning”. He was not the “light” but he came to testify about the”light”.He is also called, in 1 Jn1, “the Word of life” which was as a Son with the Father.
John 3 says that the “only begotten Son ” was sent into the world and the Son of man had descended from heaven. These things mean that he existed before he was sent and descended.
Thus his “only begotten” status precedes his arrival on earth. Since he existed prior to his being begotten of Mary [Ps 2]and the Spirit of God and was with God in the beginning it seems likely that he was begotten [as only begotten] in the beginning though no detail is given.
Again Hebrews 1 and Coll 1 tells us the world and all things in heaven and earth were created through him so he had separate life before all of creation surely so he is “the firstborn of all creation”.
Hope this helps.Quote (Guest @ May 28 2005,22:17) I think you could make a case for “wisdom of God” being a title of Christ Jesus (see below NT scriptures). Later patristic commentators understood it clearly of Jesus. See Hippolytus, Frg. in Prov (PG 10.628); Cyprian, Testim. 2.2 (CSEL 3.64). H. Conzelmann (Theology, 110 n. 1). 1 Cor 1:24,
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.1 Cor 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:1 Cor 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our gloryCol 2:2,3
2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.Perhaps Luke alluding to the implications of 7:35; 11:31?
Luke 7:35
34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! 35But wisdom is justified of all her children.Luke 11:31
31The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.Also, doesn’t Matthew 23:34 make it clear to you exactly who sent the prophets. Matthew, skilled in shorthand, was likely there taking notes verbatum.
Nick,
I’m still waiting for:1. proof that Acts 20:28 has been poorly translated
2. An answer to when you think Jesus was begotten
So, DVD, let us put Christ himself back into the context we are discussing and see how it readsLk 11 46f[adjusted to your view]
” But he[Jesus] said….
For this reason also I said 'I will send to them prophets..”So he is quoting himself then. Is it recorded when he said this? No. I don't think it fits do you? Are there any other occasions when he spoke of himself as “the wisdom of God”?
As for the verse in Acts 20.28 do you not have the help of the Spirit to read this verse or are you solely reliant on the leading of men? Following men has risks as if they are blind we all fall into the ditch.
If not then perhaps you can show me another verse describing the blood of God. You have said that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came in the flesh so you cannot surely mean he is that God as well as being the Son of God surely?
Quote (Guest @ May 29 2005,15:38) Quote (t8 @ May 28 2005,11:39) DVD, Who came in the flesh?
Jesus Christ, the Word, came in the flesh:Jn 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Thanks DVD.
Hi Artizan007,
Regarding your post where you inquired about the essence of God and Yeshua, I thought it would be good to say the following:
God is Spirit and he is the God of all, even the God of Yeshua.
Yeshua is the prototype (pro-tot-ok'-os). So he was the first to come from God. That makes him a derivative or an image of the original. Of course we were created in God's image and God's image is Yeshua. Yet Yeshua is not created, he was begotten (monogeniés) and all that was created came from God and through Christ.But God has a nature and he shares his nature. So Yeshua is a divine being in that he has the fullness of God's nature and we too have the promise of partaking of the divine nature. Scripture says that it is a mystery to what we will become, but that we will be like him.
So God become a Father when he begat a son in his own likeness, so the Son is like God in many ways. He is the most like God of any being as he is the original image, the prototype of all the images.
That is why it is written that God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of man and man is the head of the woman. We can also see that the woman came from man and man came from God who created all things through Christ. So in some ways we can understand in a very limited capacity how Christ relates to God by looking at the way that woman relates to man in that she came from him and is like him.
Women and men are human and wo-man means from man. We both have the same nature, that is human nature. So it is with God who begat a son with his own nature. So that Yeshua is a godly being; he is divine in nature. Yet the Father is not only divine in nature but he that divinity in identity, he is the Divine as opposed to being divine. In other words He is the originator of that nature. So we have one God (Elohim, Theos) who begats gods (elohim, theos). We are gods because we are his offspring.
Similarly Adam is the man (son of man) and he begat through Eve, beings of his nature that is mankind. But Adam is not just man in nature but also in identity. He was/is the original man, the son of man. He is 'the man' so to speak, not just a man. However due to Adam's disobedience, Yeshua is the new son of man, so that all in Adam will die, but all in Christ shall live. We are no longer modelled after Adam, but after Christ himself who is the firstborn.
So God the Father is still the original and Most High God and always will be. It is also clear that Yeshua is the firstborn and always will be. Both are divine, but one is the originator and the other the recipent. One is the original and the other is His image. One is the Father and the other his son.
t8,
No Problem Jn 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
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