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Hi,
1Thess3.11
” Now may God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all men, just as we do for you;so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God [just as you actually do walk]that you may excel even more. For you know what commandments we gave you, by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification;that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor…
For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification”It must be annoying to trinitarians that the Word constantly shows us that the Father and the Son are separate and not the same. If they were the same these verses would not mention them both
It is also reassuring that we are not expected to be perfect yet but we walk on a path of sanctification. If we do the walking God does the enabling. Praise God!
Quote (Guest @ May 26 2005,03:27) http://www.probe.org/docs/nicea.html
Thank you FYI,
Very informative.
Of course if the main plank of the argument for trinity belief and baptism is the formula of Mt 28.19 then it is very weak. That formula was not used by any of the followers of Jesus as recorded in Acts as Christ was preached, and not a trinity, and Baptism was done always in the name of Jesus and not a trinity.[Of course if there are three in one then there is no Father and no Son-and denying this is antichrist.]
That leads to several possibilities:
Did the Apostles disobey? Unlikely as Acts is scripture
Did they not understand the command? Unlikely as the fruit of their behavior was good.
Is Matt 28.19 added, altered or has it a deeper and different context in that Baptism in the name of Jesus is the correct response?There are some thoughtful views in a forum here as well as one on Arianism. The internet also has information relating to Bishop Eusebius's library said to contain Matthews original version where Mt 28.19read”in my name”
Just a quick question Nick and T8.
You both say that Jesus was Begotten of God before the Word created the earth, as so many scriptures state and or imply. The one that triggered my query was Hebrews 1:
I believe this to be true cause it is clearly stated in Scripture but I want to know how you think this happened. Was he, the Word begotten twice or just the once.
The account in Hebrews says the angels worshiped Him… we know that this happened at this birth on earth when God brought forth his Firstborn.
Just a thought that has come into my mind. Was He begotten twice or once in your opinion.
A word of caution Artizan007:
Be careful to whom you attribute the act of creation. YHWH is very clear that he is solely responsible.
Isaiah 44:24:
Quote Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am YHWH, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.”Yes, there are a few verses in the NT that seem to attribute creation to Yeshua, but in most cases, they are mistranslations, (or careless translations), of the underlying Greek text. If you check multiple translations of the verses in question, you will see what I mean. (The one exception is the passage in Hebrews 1 which is explained here: http://www.torahofmessiah.com/echad4.htm )
Isaiah 45:18:
Quote For this is what YHWH says—
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited—
he says:
“I am YHWH,
and there is no other.”But make no mistake. Yeshua is not YHWH.
Ephesians 1:3:
Quote Blessed be the God and Father of our master Yeshua the Messiah… . The Almighty God does not have a god over Him. He looks around and says, “There is no other.” However, as the apostle Paul points out, Yeshua does have a God over him. His name is YHWH.
Hi WIT,
There is no need to explain away the role of Yeshua in creation.
All creation came through him for his God and our God, the Father.God is the builder
Yeshua is the carpenter
We are God's buildingQuote (Artizan007 @ May 26 2005,15:50) Just a quick question Nick and T8. You both say that Jesus was Begotten of God before the Word created the earth, as so many scriptures state and or imply. The one that triggered my query was Hebrews 1:
I believe this to be true cause it is clearly stated in Scripture but I want to know how you think this happened. Was he, the Word begotten twice or just the once.
The account in Hebrews says the angels worshiped Him… we know that this happened at this birth on earth when God brought forth his Firstborn.
Just a thought that has come into my mind. Was He begotten twice or once in your opinion.
Hi A7,
Good question.
The word “Begotten” or “begat” etc is used far more commonly in the KJV than other versions, for example in the line of fatherly succession in Matt 1. So it relates to the relationship between a father and his son.
So in these general terms it [3205]is used in
Pr 17.21, 23.22, 23.24, Is 49.21,Is 45.10
It relates to creation of nature in Jb 38.28.
It relates to the relationship to God and the Israelites in Dt 32.18The same root[3205]is used in Ps 2.7
This verse in the NT is quoted in Acts 13.33, Heb 1.5 and Heb 5.5 and in all cases 1080 is the greek word used. So that would mnake 3205 in Hebrew equivalent to 1080 in greek. So it seems that when God celebrates in Ps 2 He is talking about the physical sonship of Yeshua-the Son of Man.“Only begotten”-[“monogenes-3439]
is totally different and more difficult to understand [seeming to relate to his sole derivation from God]and occurs in
Jn 1.14,1.187, 3.16, 3.18, and 1 Jn 4.9.In Hebrews 11.17 it relates to Abraham and his son Isaac too.
With Yeshua it always seems to relate to the origin in the beginning of the relationship between God and the Son of God.
That is my ideas. Any other views?
YESHUAH IS YHWH INCARNATE.
Isaiah 40:3 with mark 1
Zechariah 14
also John 20:28 among any oher verses. Yhwh being solely responsible is true but jesus is Yhwh thats why ALL hings were creaed through him
1 cor 8:6 Hebrews 1 John 1 ephesians 3:9 Col 1Nick,
When you can explain to me how the phrases “all alone” and “by Myself” can include more than one person, I will reconsider my word of caution. Until then, I will take YHWH's testimony, (as quoted in Isaiah), over your architect analogy.
Isaiah 44:24:
Quote
Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am YHWH, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.”liljon,
Glad to see you! Maybe you can answer a Trinitarian riddle for me, since you are one of the most ardent supporters of that doctrine on this site. Here it is:
Who died on the cross? Yeshua only or YHWH?
If you say that Yeshua only died on the cross, does that not make him seperate from YHWH? Does that not imply that your Trinity is actually three seperate gods, one of whom died and rose again while the other two remained alive?
If you say that YHWH died on the cross – (God forbid!) – does that not include the Father and the Spirit as well? Does that not imply that it was not just the Son who was ransomed for sin, but the Father and the Spirit also?
You see, as a Trinitarian, you have to embrace both trithiesm and “oneness” at various points in your doctrine in order for it to make any sense. In creation you recognize one God creating all things, but in salvation you recognize three gods doing three different things. But it all comes down to the cross. Your understanding of what happened there ultimately defines your faith.
So tell us, liljon, (and other Trinitarians), who died on the cross? Yeshua only or YHWH?
(As for me, I say that Yeshua only died and rose again, as it is the only answer that makes scriptural sense.)
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 26 2005,21:04) Nick, When you can explain to me how the phrases “all alone” and “by Myself” can include more than one person, I will reconsider my word of caution. Until then, I will take YHWH's testimony, (as quoted in Isaiah), over your architect analogy.
Isaiah 44:24:
Quote
Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am YHWH, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.”
Hi WIT,
Do you regard the New and Old Testament as of equal validity?Are they both written by the Spirit through men? Or do you regard the New as a poor relative of dubious origins and to be taken only with a grain of salt?I think scripture is clear in the role of Yeshua in creation
Coll 1.13-17
John 1.3
Heb 1.2-3We do not base understandings on one scripture though none can be broken. God is not limited by the weakness of our language.If you want to be rigidly literal do you too think it is Yahweh who stands on Mount Zion in Zech 14?
Was the work of Apollos and Paul irrelevant to God's purposes in 1Cor 3? No they were as verse 9 says “God's fellow workers” Surely the Son of God also is God's fellow worker?Why should God get His hands dirty-He is God after all?
Quote (liljon @ May 26 2005,21:04) YESHUAH IS YHWH INCARNATE.
Isaiah 40:3 with mark 1
Zechariah 14
also John 20:28 among any oher verses. Yhwh being solely responsible is true but jesus is Yhwh thats why ALL hings were creaed through him
1 cor 8:6 Hebrews 1 John 1 ephesians 3:9 Col 1
Hi liljon,
So God became incarnate by the Spirit at the baptism of Jesus.
If that is what you mean I agree. That is when he began his mission filled with the Holy Spirit and power.So what was Jesus before that event? He was conceived, he grew and learned at his human parent's feet. Was he like us in every way as the scriptures say?
Or was he just a body? Or was he just a body from his conception containing the Father? Scripture does not say that. If it did the two could not be one because there was only one.
Nick,
I repeat:
When you can explain to me how the phrases “all alone” and “by Myself” can include more than one person, I will reconsider my word of caution. Until then, I will take YHWH's testimony, (as quoted in Isaiah), over your architect analogy.
I gave more than one verse in defense of what I have said – (see my first post on the subject) – and there are others. I have explained my stance on the verses you referenced – (again see my first post). When you can explain how the phrase “by Myself” can be taken non-literally, I will listen.
Hi WIT,
Your Torah of Messiah source has some unusual approaches to scripture
Ps 104.4
” He makes the winds His messengers, flaming fire His ministers”
Ps 45.7
“Therefore thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness;Therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of Joy above thy fellows”These are scripture- Right?
These words are those of the Spirit of God through men?Not so according to Marcus. They are not truth.They are just the words of the psalmist!!!!
So not only does he deny Hebrews but also the OT-he insults the Spirit of Grace by demeaning the Word of God.. I would hate to see his view of Job as surely it is just a compilation of the opinions of men and not scripture either!
He does a nice complicated little two step attributing everything that could relate to the Son in Hebrews[and is stated to relate to the Son]instead to the Father.
He forgets the “for a little while” when quoting that Yeshua is “lower than the angels”
Wake up WIT. This is false teaching and denies scripture surely.
However perhaps I may have misread the article so I will review it.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 26 2005,22:40) Nick, I repeat:
When you can explain to me how the phrases “all alone” and “by Myself” can include more than one person, I will reconsider my word of caution. Until then, I will take YHWH's testimony, (as quoted in Isaiah), over your architect analogy.
I gave more than one verse in defense of what I have said – (see my first post on the subject) – and there are others. I have explained my stance on the verses you referenced – (again see my first post). When you can explain how the phrase “by Myself” can be taken non-literally, I will listen.
Hi Wit.
Jn 9.3
“It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents;but it was that the WORKS OF GOD might be displayed in him. We must work the WORKS OF HIM who sent me, as long as it is day”
Who did the works? God or Yeshua?I think you miss Whatistrue's point Nick. Isaiah 44:24 unequivically states that no one else was involved in the creation act, period. YHWH did it alone and by Himself. This leaves absolutely no room for Jesus being an agent, or any other role for that matter. Either Isaiah 44:24 is false or (if you believe what John 1:3, Col 1:13-17, Heb 1:2, 10 state) Jesus is YHWH.
There is not other acceptable conclusion.
No DVD
I do not miss the point. And he has not answered my point that doctrines do not get developed out of one scripture and the scriptures I quoted must also be accommodated.We are so small minded and too quickly slam the door when one scripture seems to say something.
Yeshua is not Yahweh, any child could tell us that.
Who healed the lame man on the steps of the temple?
Peter?
Jesus?
or God?
Acts 3.6-16ps
Lk 11.20
” But if I cast out demons BY THE FINGER OF GOD, then the kingdom of God has come upon you”
If Jesus did the Father's work on earth why is it hard to see him doing it prior to being sent to earth by the Father?Unless, of course you are defending a false doctrine that Jesus was only a man and not the Son of God who was with God in the beginning.
Hi 2Cor 2.14
” But thanks be to God, who always leads us to triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of him in every place. For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things? For we are not like many, peddling the Word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God”God and Christ are separate.
God loves Christ as all love fragrance.
God loves us as we are of the fragrance of Christ.
We are the salt of the earth.
But we must serve Him and not man.
God works in us through simple truth.
He is at work in us to will and to do.
We can do all things through him who strengthens us.
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