The Trinity Doctrine

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,12:08)

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,12:04) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:44) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,11:42) Hi BD: You say: Quote So you would have killed Jesus to save yourself? Enough of your foolish questions.  Of course, I would not have killed Jesus to save myself. Quote 1 Corinthians 2 1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Love in Christ, Marty Are you glad that he was killed on your behalf? Without his death, were you bound for hell? Would you still be willing to go to hell if it could undo the death of Christ? Hi BD: I am glad that he obeyed God without sin even unto the death on the cross.  Jesus obeyed God and did this for you and me to show us just how much he loved us.   Apparently, there was not other way for man to be redeemed.  Of course, I am sorry that he had to suffer the way that he did, but this was God's plan for the redemption of mankind. And so, your questions to me are foolish ones.  This was God's plan, and the only way that evil men could be overcome.  They have the power to threaten you with death in order to make you do what they want you to do, but man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the soul.  Jesus is alive, and be cause he live I will also live with him as I learn also to obey God in spite of what man can do to me. Love in Christ, Marty Heb 9:22  Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. How is it that Jesus forgave sins before his blood was shed? Doesn't that prove that shedding his blood was not necessary? And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Luke 5:19-21

Hi BD:

Hebrews 9:22 is correct.

Jesus could say “your sins are forgiven” to those who believed in him even before he shed his blood because he knew what he was going to do. He knew that he would be crucified, and that he would be raised from the dead. It was a done deal.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,12:57)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,12:08) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,12:04) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:44) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,11:42) Hi BD: You say: Quote So you would have killed Jesus to save yourself? Enough of your foolish questions.  Of course, I would not have killed Jesus to save myself. Quote 1 Corinthians 2 1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Love in Christ, Marty Are you glad that he was killed on your behalf? Without his death, were you bound for hell? Would you still be willing to go to hell if it could undo the death of Christ? Hi BD: I am glad that he obeyed God without sin even unto the death on the cross.  Jesus obeyed God and did this for you and me to show us just how much he loved us.   Apparently, there was not other way for man to be redeemed.  Of course, I am sorry that he had to suffer the way that he did, but this was God's plan for the redemption of mankind. And so, your questions to me are foolish ones.  This was God's plan, and the only way that evil men could be overcome.  They have the power to threaten you with death in order to make you do what they want you to do, but man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the soul.  Jesus is alive, and be cause he live I will also live with him as I learn also to obey God in spite of what man can do to me. Love in Christ, Marty Heb 9:22  Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. How is it that Jesus forgave sins before his blood was shed? Doesn't that prove that shedding his blood was not necessary? And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Luke 5:19-21 Hi BD: Hebrews 9:22 is correct. Jesus could say “your sins are forgiven” to those who believed in him even before he shed his blood because he knew what he was going to do.  He knew that he would be crucified, and that he would be raised from the dead.  It was a done deal. Love in Christ, Marty

Then why did he ask God “Father please take this cup from me”?

Also John baptized for the remission of sins as well, how was that possible without blood?

Jesus also said that John had the authority to baptize for the remission of sins

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Mike

I brought this post that you made to Jack over here so I could personally respond to it though I have other responses to answer to both you and JA in the debates thread, and will answer soon but I feel led to make this post at the moment.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Hi Jack, Run, run, run away.  It's what you do second best.  #1 is insult and belittle people who disagree with your doctrines. Instead of sitting on your high horse accusing me of heresy, why don't you prove my statement wrong?  All the necessary info is in the two posts I made.  Am I mistaken?  Show me how.

So you never patronize anyone here Mike? I think to some degree we are all guilty of that and it should stop, however Jesus did call men vipers, whited sepulchers, children of the devil, etc, but one should be sure he is led by the Spirit before doing what Jesus did knowing the greater judgment is on those who offend. Only Jesus could say “he that is without sin let him cast the first stone”! I do not think Jack is running, I think to him he thinks you are a waste of time, and he could be right!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

This is typical trinitarian behavior.

This is funny Mike, have you noticed the conduct of the ati-trinis here? Do I have to name names?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

They have had this rep from the start of there flawed doctrine.

Now you are just being biased!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Look at my info on Eusebius.  He didn't believe that Jesus was God Almighty, but was begotten by Him.  But he was persuaded to cave in by the threat of excommunication.  Isn't that what you are doing?  Threatening to excommunicate me?  Unfortunately for you, unlike Eusebius, I love praise from God more than praise from men.

That should tell you something Mike.  Eusebius is a coward. So you can have Eusebius I don’t care. The point I was making to you concerning him is he appeared to support the creeds and was a prominent figure at the councils, and the creeds say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-eternal and co-equal which means that their trinitarian use of the word “begotten” could not mean the same thing as your use of it, right?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

You say I make you puke?  Just like the JWs and JA make you puke, huh?  Seems to me when you can't refute Scripture with your conjecture, your adversary makes you want to puke.  How mature of you.

Well how mature was Jesus? Jesus wanted to vomit over the lukewarm church over their “self deception” of having need of nothing. Jack wants to puke over the false doctrines that are preached here, and at some point it does become sickening.  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

But it's the same reaction the trinitarians take against the JWs for the way they translate John 1:1.  You speak some Greek.  You know it should be “a god”, not “God”.  At the very least, you know it COULD be.  But instead of dealing with that, it's far easier to join the “slam the Witnesses” club and go around calling them a cult.  May Jehovah rebuke you Jack.

Jack knows the truth that every other credible Greek scholar knows which apparently means nothing to you who speaks no Greek or has any training yet sides with “A cult” who translated the Holy Scriptures with men who had no credentials at all in Biblical languages and translation of Hebrew and Greek. Shame on you Mike! You put yourself above the cream of Hebrew and Greek scholarship!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Finally, we have NEVER discussed my original questions about the right hand, although I've asked them at least 10 times. 1. When in the history of the world did being at someone's right hand make that one exactly equal to the one who's right hand he was at?

I addressed this before Mike and you refused to answer. First we are talking about the infinite nature of the Father and Jesus and there are no examples in the “history of the world” that can fully exemplify the relationship of the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Second, Jesus is not only at the Fathers right hand, but unlike all other examples he is the owner and possessor of all things and by him all things consist and all things were made by him and for him.

IS THERE AN EXAMPLE IN HISTORY THAT YOU CAN COMPARE WITH THAT MIKE?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

2.  When in the history of the world did being at someone's right hand mean that one was the same exact being as the one who's right hand he was at?

Again, you are comparing the finite natural physical world with an infinite Spiritual being! You will have to do better than that Mike. You have a problem of seeing God only by your own finite understanding. Carnal logic by itself will not reveal to you who and what God is, that takes the Holy Spirit. Peter had to have the revelation of who Jesus was and it is no different today. You limit God to being like men!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Btw, it is Scripture that tells us that Jesus now sits at God's right hand, WAITING for his enemies to BE MADE a footstool for his feet.  Instead of heresy accusations, maybe you could actually answer to what the Bible teaches for once?

You are taking Jack out of context. Jacks point is not that Jesus is waiting but that Jesus is the one who will subdue his enemies under his feet which you are denying.

You are implying that the Father alone is going to do this, yet the scriptures tell us that both the Father and Jesus will accomplish this, though we do not yet see all things under him.

Then cometh the end, when he shall (Jesus) have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (Jesus) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For
he (Jesus) must reign, till he (Jesus) hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:24-26

Here we see several points..

1. The end will come when Jesus delivers the Kingdom to the Father.

This speaks of the sovereignty of Jesus for he is in complete POSSESSION OF AND IN CONTROL OF IT. Matt 28:19, John 15:16, John 3:35, Eph 1:20, 21, Col 2:9, 10  

2. Jesus must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet and the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. We know that the Father has already put all things under his feet, (1 Cor 15:25, 27 – Eph 1:22) for Jesus now has all authority and power, yet Heb 2:8 Says…

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, HE LEFT NOTHING THAT IS NOT PUT UNDER HIM. “BUT NOW WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM”

So while the Father has put all things under Jesus by giving him all things and exalting him above all principality and power yet now we do not see all things under him and in fact it is Jesus that will bring this about according to the following scriptures…

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “HE IS ABLE EVEN TO SUBDUE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF”. Phil 3:21

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; “that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil”; Heb 2:14

The last enemy which is death will be destroyed by Jesus. And he will also subdue all things to himself, then he will deliver up the Kingdom back to the Father and subject himself (imagine that, not subject to the Father) that God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost may be all in all!  

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and from the glory of his power”; 2 Thess 1:8, 9

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, “WHOM THE LORD (JESUS) SHALL CONSUME WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING”: 2 Thess 2:8

So from what I can tell Jack chooses to accept the whole council of God here while you accept only one aspect of the truth while rejecting scriptures that says Jesus will carry out the subjecting of all things under him, and then when all things are subjected under him then Jesus will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all.

Psalms 110 in its context bears this out…

The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill [the places] with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. Pss 110:5, 6

Jesus said that “ALL JUDGMENT” has been given to him for the Father judges no man, and for that reason men should honor him even as God! John 5:22, 23

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Does Jesus now rule the world as it's King?

Not yet. All things are under his feet but not all his enemies are have been subdued or destroyed yet, but Jesus has All authority in heaven and in earth (Matt 28:18) and any authority or power that men or satan has is only allowed by Jesus. (Hebrews 13:1)  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Or will that happen when he opens the scroll, comes on the clouds, and begins his 1000 year reign?  Has it already begun, like the JWs believe?

The Bible says that when Jesus appears he will destroy his enemies with the brightness of his appearing. (2 Thess 2:8)  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

IMO, we would have seen many changes for the better in this world by now if Jesus was reigning as King.

Yes this is a real problem for you Mike, because though Jesus and many scriptures claim that he is ruling with all authority and power that you do not believe he is.  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Does he already reign in heaven?  This I don't know.

By him all things consist, and are upheld by the word of his power and the Angels are commanded to worship him. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords Mike. The Kingdom of God is his and he himself said that his Kingdom was not of this world. These are basic truths and you say you don’t know?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

This I don't know.  But I'm pretty sure that Satan is still “the god of this world”.  Has Satan already been cast out of heaven?  Don't know for sure.

Jesus said he saw satan fall as lightning and he spent a big part of his ministry setting men free from satan and his demons. If he isn’t here then who was it that tempted Jesus and Peter and the church? Again these are very basic truths of the scriptures.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Oh yeah, the Legion question was to prove that although the man was doing the physical talking, the voice was that of someone other than the man.  So when someone says “Jehovah said” this or that, it doesn't necessarily mean that Jehovah was there in person.

God is everywhere, how could he not be present when he is speaking his word even if it is through another? The problem you have is that there is no scriptural example of a messenger of God or an Angel that claimed they were YHWH unless in fact they were! Jack has already shown you this but you choose to ignore the truth.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,22:32)

Happy trails to you.  I will continue to pray that you receive an understanding of Jesus that is more aligned with Scripture.

I am sure I could speak for Jack and say that he nor I need those kind of prayers that would corrupt our view to the brainwashing that the JWs has done to you!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2010,13:44)

Hi ED, This is a bible study site. Discussion of the imagined trinity never had much of a future here.

NH

Yet the Trinity discussion has been here since the forum started.

WJ

[Arnold]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and there it stopped, where did Ed go?  Maybe He had the problem I incountered…. Maybe He is one of the new members and giving us a hard time?? I am laughing…..Maybe He couldn't sale one of His Books…. OH, YES HE GAVE THEM AWAY….maybe Georg got to Him….Now I am rattling again…..what of the trinity.  Well it is a man made doctrine and not of God.  It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who first came up with it.  He was born in A.D. 155 to Pagan Parents.  It is rather sad to me that all the Holy Days listed in Lev. 23 are changed, to Holidays like Christmas and Easter and Valentines Day and the one I hate the most Halloween….  Spooky….  It was Constantine who after almost three centuries of brutal and bloody persecution allowed the Christians to practice their religion openly.  That is when the Universal Roman Church came about.  Later it was named the Roman Catholic Church…So much was changed, even the Calendar.  My Husband has a Rye Study Bible of King James and in the footnotes are all of God's Months listed.  There too you can figure out that Christ was not born on December 25.  He was rather born in late September.  The exact date is not known….  But Ed thinks that He did count out the exact date which He never told us, I don't think, unless my memory is wrong…I really enjoyed keeping all of God's Holy Days…Unfortunately they too went back into believing in the trinity.  
Some main Scriptures that shows me how wrong the trinity is
Ephesians 4:6 ..one God God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it is shewed that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel; The LORD God is one LORD
Notice that LORD is in all, capital letters. While Lord is Jesus.
1 Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
The one Scripture that Jesus is speaking is in
John 14:28 …. for My Father is greater then I…..
Romans 14″6 .. that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Notice in here Lord is not capitalized.  
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator  between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
I believe that these Scriptures are clear to me and therefore I do not believe in the trinity….
Peace and Love Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2010,10:21)

NH Yet the Trinity discussion has been here since the forum started. WJ

Actually it is probably the Trinitarians who keep the topic alive.

The first one was started by a Trinitarian and they just kept coming back for more. No problem with that of course. It should be discussed.

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:

Quote

I think to him he thinks you are a waste of time, and he could be right!

Exactly! Not only this but I cannot stomach Mike any longer. And I don't give a hoot what he thinks.

WJ:

Quote

Jack wants to puke over the false doctrines that are preached here, and at some point it does become sickening.

It was Mike's comparison of the Godship of Jesus to satan's specifically that makes me want to puke.  In the book of Revelation satan is called “the destroyer”. Jesus is our Savior who gives us eternal life by revealing His own Father to us. Christ is God to us by the Father's doing through exalting Him. Satan is a usurper god.

Yet Mike thinks there is a comparison. Anathema!

Mike said to Kangaroo Jack:

Quote

Btw, it is Scripture that tells us that Jesus now sits at God's right hand, WAITING for his enemies to BE MADE a footstool for his feet.  Instead of heresy accusations, maybe you could actually answer to what the Bible teaches for once?

WJ replied to Mike:

Quote

You are taking Jack out of context. Jacks point is not that Jesus is waiting but that Jesus is the one who will subdue his enemies under his feet which you are denying.

Mike said that christ does not reign now. I then asked him what Christ is doing at God's right hand and His reply was this, “He is waiting for God to make His enemies His footstool”.

According to Paul: He must REIGN UNTIL….

According to Mike: He must WAIT until….

TO WJ:

Did you notice that Mike did not produce a statement by me inwhich I “deny” that God will subdue Christ's enemies.
I have always confessed this. But I have said that christ will also subdue His enemies because He and His father always act together as one. Mike explicitly denied that the two persons act as one.

Mike does nothing but accuse falsely here. Jesus was also accused falsely for saying things He did not say. I rejoice that He counts me worthy to suffer with Him.

Kangaroo Jack

[gollamudi]

Is Jesus the G-d of Abraham?
Most Christians say yes. While Christians had not developed this idea in the first century, and in the second century it was still a minority belief, the notion that Jesus was G-d soon cumulated into the fourth century Bianity doctrine of Nicea and the later Trinity doctrine of Constantinople. Today it is held by a majority of Christians in some form or another. But the real question is, what does the Torah say?

God is not a man that he should be deceitful nor a son of man that he should relent. (Numbers 23:19)

This verse states four things. God is not a man, God is not a son of man, God is not deceitful, and God does not relent. For our purposes we need to focus on the first two.

The words translated to son of man are ben adam. They are also adequately rendered mortal man or human being in many translations. While this verse states that God is not a son of man, Jesus uses this title for himself repeatedly in the gospels. Therefore, Jesus is not God according to the Torah.

I will not act on My wrath, will not turn to destroy Ephraim. For I am God, not man, The Holy One in your midst. (Hosea 11:9)

A similar verse; the same applies here as above. This states that God is not a man, while from the gospels we know that Jesus was a man. Therefore, according to Hosea Jesus is not God.

Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not deceive or change His mind, for He is not human that He should change His mind. (1 Samuel 15:29)

Once again we see that God is not a human. However, as noted above, the favorite title for Jesus in the gospels is one that is equivalent to “human being.” According to Samuel, Jesus is not God.

He is not a man, like me, that I can answer him, that we can go to law together. No arbiter is between us, to lay his hand on us both. (Job 9:32-33)

Once again, we see the declaration that God is not a man (while Jesus was). This verse is interesting because it also states that there is no mediator between God and man, contrary to Christian claims that Jesus is a mediator. According to Job, Jesus is neither God nor mediator.

Will you still say, “I am a god” before your slayers, when you are proved a man, not a god, at the hands of those who strike you down? (Ezekiel 28:9)

This is an interesting verse. It demonstrates that mortality is one sure sign that someone is not a deity. Jesus' mortality was quite clear – he was struck down. While Christians would claim that he rose again, this verse would debate that God could be struck down at all. It seems that according to Ezekiel, Jesus can't be God.

For your own sake, therefore, be most careful – since you saw no shape when the Lord your God spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. (Hosea 4:15)

This was a warning for Israel. In essence, it states never to worship anything that has an image, because they saw on image on Mt. Sinai. However, Jesus had an image. In addition, the Jews did not see God on Mt. Sinai. Jesus seems to be implicated in this warning by Hosea.

If there appears among you a prophet or a dream-diviner and he gives you a sign or a portent, saying, ‘Let us follow and worship another god ‘ – whom you have not experienced – even if the sign or portent that he named to you comes true, do not heed the words of that prophet or dream diviner. (Deut. 13:2)

This is an important verse for two reasons. For one, it demonstrates that Jesus is not God because the Israelites did not experience Jesus in the desert with Moses. It also demonstrates that false prophets can do miracles, and thus the miracles of Jesus (including his resurrection) do not prove a thing. The Torah seems to warn about Jesus, or people like him.

For I am the Lord, I change not. Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)

Jesus, as a human being, was in a constant state of change. Only something incorporeal can avoid change. Jesus' human nature excludes the possibility of Jesus being an unchanging God. And God never changes, according to Malachi. Jesus must not be the God Malachi is speaking of.

There is so much Scriptural evidence against Jesus being God, that entire websites are dedicated to this fact alone. Therefore, I won't present a detailed commentary on New Testament texts and how they relate to Jesus divinity or the lack thereof. I will only present a few that are absolute and exclusive in nature.

Then Jesus was led up by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. (Matthew 4:1)

God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was.

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father. (Mark 3:32)

Jesus was not all-knowing.

The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do. (John 5:19)
Now he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people an healed them. (Mark 6:5)

Jesus was not all-powerful.

Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. (Matthew 19:17)

Jesus was not all-good.

Source: http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/id13.html

[kerwin]

Adam,

Fairly good though I do believe elsewhere scripture declares that angels are mediators between man and God and that God did have a form on mount Sainai. In the later case the form was probably an angel which are often reffered to as God but the earlier case is a mystery that bears looking into.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Arnold @ May 25 2010,11:56)

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and there it stopped, where did Ed go?  Maybe He had the problem I  incountered…. Maybe He is one of the new members and giving us a hard time?? I am laughing…..Maybe He couldn't sale one of His Books…. OH, YES HE GAVE THEM AWAY….maybe Georg got to Him….Now I am rattling again…..what of the trinity.  Well it is a man made doctrine and not of God.  It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who first came up with it.  He was born in A.D. 155 to Pagan Parents.  It is rather sad to me that all the Holy Days listed in Lev. 23 are changed, to Holidays like Christmas and Easter and Valentines Day and the one I hate the most Halloween….  Spooky….  It was Constantine who after almost three centuries of brutal and bloody persecution allowed the Christians to practice their religion openly.  That is when the Universal Roman Church came about.  Later it was named the Roman Catholic Church…So much was changed, even the Calendar.  My Husband has a Rye Study Bible of King James and in the footnotes are all of God's Months listed.  There too you can figure out that Christ was not born on December 25.  He was rather born in late September.  The exact date is not known….  But Ed thinks that He did count out the exact date which He never told us, I don't think, unless my memory is wrong…I really enjoyed keeping all of God's Holy Days…Unfortunately they too went back into believing in the trinity.   Some main Scriptures that shows me how wrong the trinity is Ephesians 4:6 ..one God God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it is shewed that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.” Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel; The LORD God is one LORD Notice that LORD is in all, capital letters. While Lord is Jesus. 1 Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.” The one Scripture that Jesus is speaking is in John 14:28 …. for My Father is greater then I….. Romans 14″6 .. that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Notice in here Lord is not capitalized.   1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator  between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. I believe that these Scriptures are clear to me and therefore I do not believe in the trinity…. Peace and Love Irene

You know what i find humrous about your post,

That i use the same scriptures….
not all of them in this forum, but in general
to show otherwise…

I love you!

much love!

     
             

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2010,18:27)

Adam, Fairly good though I do believe elsewhere scripture declares that angels are mediators between man and God and that God did have a form on mount Sainai.  In the later case the form was probably an angel which are often reffered to as God but the earlier case is a mystery that bears looking into.

Hi brother Kerwin,
Thanks for your comments. You know Hebrew scriptures never claim the necessity of a mediator between God and men. But God used them for the benefit of mankind to understand the invisible God.

Coming to the form of God: Scriptures differ your views as per Deut 4:12 “Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice”. God is pure spirit he doesn't have literal form but He talks in human language for us to understand Him in our way for example God talks about ''His right hand' it doesn't mean He has hands like us. Even Jesus talked about spirit in Luke 24 that it doesn't have flesh and bones like us. If God is pure spirit I don't think He has literal eyes, hands, legs etc. like us. Even He talks about His dwelling in heavens and He talks about His throne is heaven and earth is His foot stool. This language makes God beyond a corporeal being.

I only understand that God's glory can be talked about in human terms like Moses saw His rareside of His glory. He manifests to humans in a way of a theophany/angelic appearances as He appeared to Abraham, Moses, Jacob etc.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Adam,

Job 33:23, the same book you referenced, mentions an angel speaking up for a man and telling him what is right and just for him to do.

I also believe that it was an angel and not God that Mosses spoke to in the burning bush.  

The people of the Old Testiment were known to refer to angels as God and sometime treat them just like they would treat God.  That attitude among the Jews seemed to change by the time the New Testiment was written.

The reasoning of the more ancient Jews seemed to be that the angel spoke and acted in God's stead and thus was refered to as God.  Another way is to state God spoke and acted through the angel.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2010,10:21)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2010,13:44) Hi ED, This is a bible study site. Discussion of the imagined trinity never had much of a future here. NH Yet the Trinity discussion has been here since the forum started. WJ

Hi WJ,
There is no end to the rationalisations of the deceived.
Catholic dogmas are far more popular than truth.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The effort of men to defend the indefensible is huge.
But useless.

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,13:31)

1) Then why did he ask God “Father please take this cup from me”? 2) Also John baptized for the remission of sins…

Hi BD,

I want to 'only' answer one question per Post, but in this case I will make an exception.
Don't you think it's rather silly for you to try to use “The Bible” to disprove The Bible?
All us here in “Heaven”(.net) certainly do! Drop the 'book of fraud'=114! (Job 41:13)

                                    [74+74=148]

1) Because “Jesus”=74 was sweating blood (Luke 22:44) in anticipation of the 'cross'=74;
because he knew he was going to be “The Passover”=148 (פסח=148) Lamb. (John 12:27 / Rev.13:8)

2) John baptized as a “Shadow Picture” of the “Gospel”=74 of Jesus=74; “The Passover”=148 Lamb. (1Peter 1:19)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ June 01 2010,23:12)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,13:31) 1) Then why did he ask God “Father please take this cup from me”? 2) Also John baptized for the remission of sins… Hi BD, I want to 'only' answer one question per Post, but in this case I will make an exception. Don't you think it's rather silly for you to try to use “The Bible” to disprove The Bible? All us here in “Heaven”(.net) certainly do! Drop the 'book of fraud'=114! (Job 41:13)                                     [74+74=148] 1) Because “Jesus”=74 was sweating blood (Luke 22:44) in anticipation of the 'cross'=74; because he knew he was going to be “The Passover”=148 (פסח=148) Lamb. (John 12:27 / Rev.13:8) 2) John baptized as a “Shadow Picture” of the “Gospel”=74 of Jesus=74; “The Passover”=148 Lamb. (1Peter 1:19) God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Wait a minute, look at this:

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 12:26-28

Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version)

35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

which is true? and if Mark 14:35-37 is true how could John 12 26-28 be true?

2) Wait a minute I thought you believed that all the sacrifices for sin were a shadow of things to come so why would John baptizing be another shadow of things to come?

the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:1-3

Where is it in any scripture that John's baptizing didn't take away sins and if his baptism wasn't adequate why would Jesus be baptized by him?

John was given Authority to Baptize by Allah Himself as Jesus asserts and it is a baptism of repentence

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 02 2010,02:56)

1) Where is it in any scripture that John's baptizing didn't take away sins and if his baptism wasn't adequate 2) why would Jesus be baptized by him?

Hi BD,

1) Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and
without shedding of (Jesus'=74) [God blood=74] is no remission (of 'your' Sins). (Acts 20:28)
Jesus had the blood of his Father: the “HolySpirit” (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35) running through his veins!
(Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the HolySpirit hath made you overseers,
to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.) 2) Look in my last Post to you. (For a shadow Picture of the “Gospel”=74)

Keep asking questions, BD;
that's how you learn!
Your teacher,
Ed J

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2010,03:18)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 02 2010,02:56) 1) Where is it in any scripture that John's baptizing didn't take away sins and if his baptism wasn't adequate 2) why would Jesus be baptized by him? Hi BD, 1) Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of (Jesus'=74) [God blood=74] is no remission (of 'your' Sins). (Acts 20:28) Jesus had the blood of his Father: the “HolySpirit” (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35) running through his veins! (Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the HolySpirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.) 2) Look in my last Post to you. (For a shadow Picture of the “Gospel”=74) Keep asking questions, BD; that's how you learn! Your teacher, Ed J

The scapegoat which carries away the sins is never killed, it is let go alive

But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.
Leviticus 16:9-11

Micah 6:6-8 (King James Version)

6Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-19

Do you know that for Jesus to fulfill the Law he could not have been crucified being the only begotten son of God?

And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.
Exodus 13:14-16

Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.
Numbers 18:14-16

Everything that is born of a virgin is redeemed from Sacrifice, This is the law if the Law was fulfilled Jesus could not have been sacrificed.

remission of sins is based on Mercy and not Sacrifice.

I hope you see this clearly now

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 02 2010,05:29)

The scapegoat which carries away the sins is never killed, it is let go alive But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat. Leviticus 16:9-11 I hope you see this clearly now

Hi BD,

There are “two' goats, one is offered as a 'sin' offering…
Lev.16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

And the other
Lev.16:10…shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement
with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Can you NOT see how this is also a “Shadow Picture” of Jesus?
Jesus was put to death and was also presented to YHVH alive as the scripture declares! (Rom. 4:25)

Ed J

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 02 2010,05:29)

Micah 6:6-8 (King James Version) 6Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. I hope you see this clearly now

Hi BD,

Cant you NOT see the similarity between Micah 6:6-8 and Gen.22:2-12? (2Tm.2:15)
2Tm:2:15: Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman
that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Ed J

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