The Trinity Doctrine

[942767]

Hi BD:

Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14)

Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty

Jesus's love is embodied in his threat to destroy people.

Stuart

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ May 03 2010,21:18)

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Jesus's love is embodied in his threat to destroy people. Stuart

Hi Stu:

It is not God's will that any man be destroyed, but if he is destroyed, it is because he chose not to be reconciled to God.

Quote

John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Someone who has chosen not to be reconciled to God will be judged according to the life that he lived. Every man will give an account to God for the life that he lived on the day of judgment. Since all of us have broken God's law, the punishment will be according to the offence.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[TimothyVI]

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:42)

It is not God's will that any man be destroyed, but if he is destroyed, it is because he chose not to be reconciled to God.

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

Sounds like it is God's will to make one lump to be honoured and another lump to be destroyed, no matter what that lump chose.

TIm

[JustAskin]

Hi Tim,
There is more depth to the verse than is shown by casual reading.

The lump of clay has a Will of it's own and can choose to be perfect in the hands of the potter.

Who would not want to be a perfect vessel moulded by perfect hands…and yet, so it is that the Will of the clay of some is out of line with the Will of the potter.

One lump wants to be made an ornate China White washing bowl in the hope of adorning the wash table of a Queen…but is only quality enough for a dog bowl. Will that one not be rejected when it is judged after coming through the fire, indeed, if it made it through the fire?

Another, quality enough for a dinner plate, will undersell itself and end up as that dog bowl. Will it not smash itself the first time it is used? Both these, go to perdition.
And yet they were both made perfectly, according to the potter's skill but it is the clays failing that they chose the wrong vessel to be created from them.
The potter is not partial. Whatever the clay says it is qualified for, so the potter makes of it in his perfect skill and then – puts it to the fire, which is it's judgement.

Makes sense?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,15:18)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,14:24) Muhammad never called Jesus a liar so why make up false allegations against him? Look at most of you here you have hatred between yourselves and then you reject Islam as well, what a rotten tree with rotten fruit. You yourself pretended to love Muslims just to try to trick them but your kind of love is short lived the fact is I still love you whether you love me or not, I know you think you heart is in the right place. Do you love Muhammad? Bod, this is a debate forum- why? Because you have trinitarians trying to push their views when all along this is supposed to be a non trinitarian believers forum….then you have such as yourself, a Muslim on a Christian forum trying to push Islam to people, you say love is short lived here, do you see yourself? You are friendly to those who choose to listen to you and agree with you, then when they start to disagree, you are different,  so before you judge others, have a good look at yourself, in case you dont know we are in the last days, do you think the last days will be easy? Do you think that in Islam its all different? They are killing each other, iv been on Muslim forums and it seems no different, Muslim people fight too…go on mnay Christian forums (other ones) and you will see love and encouragment and kindness, dont judge all by just one forum. As for me iv seen the truth and if I seem angrier toward you its because I see the lies your trying to teach people and I cant tolerate it. The way you twist scriptures to suit yourself accept some, throw away the rest, even believe some to make a point even though you dont in fact believe it..If anyone has changed its you. Youve changed because no-one is listening to you anymore, im not listening. Now you try to say I pretended to love Muslims just to try and trick them- why do you say things like that?  Why make up lies? Thats exactly what I believe you did to me! I think the best thing for me is to avoid all of this because for everything I say you say something else Quran verses Bible, it will go on and on and on. You dont want to learn anything you just want to convert Christians to Islam thats all. Take care Bod. And yes I still love you.

Actual I do not want to convert anyone nor have I told anyone that they should be converted. In-fact, I have said you should not despise someone elses religion assuming that you are right when you have no way of knowing if you are.

Remember it is me that has said that there is ONE GOD that we should all submit to. It is you that keeps saying that Islam has a different God which is impossible because there are no other gods.

It is you that reject Muhammad while I do not reject Jesus, Moses or Muhammad or for that matter Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster or anyone else. I don't need to reject anyone to be righteous and Love God all I need to do is stay submitted to God.

I don't even disreagrd trinitarians I simply argue thier understanding about what they know just as I do with you but what are you trying to push but only what you believe.

I still love you so nothing has changed with me at all I really simply believe you are confused believing that God cannot send different prophets to different people when God never said HE didn't do that and Paul agrees that God does exactly that.

Paul was not sent to preach to the circumcised but the uncircumcised gentiles

While Peter was sent to the Circumcised, to the Jews.

Now did you not know that the Arabs whom Muhammad was sent to are Circumcised Gentiles, so there is 3 classifications here.

I am not mad at anything other than your desire to remain ignorant to the obvious facts.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14)

Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty

Is destroying someone an act of violence?

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2010,04:43)

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Is destroying someone an act of violence?

No, I don't see it as violence, but it is righteous judgment.

One cannot continue to live in God's house beyond this life if they choose not to be reconciled to Him and learn to live by His principles. This world is temporary and God is calling each and every man into a personal relationship with Him through the gospel.

And so, if anyone does not experience His grace and mercy, he will have to give an account of the life that he lived while he did live in God's house.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 04 2010,10:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2010,04:43) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Is destroying someone an act of violence? No, I don't see it as violence, but it is righteous judgment.   One cannot continue to live in God's house beyond this life if they choose not to be reconciled to Him and learn to live by His principles.  This world is temporary and God is calling each and every man into a personal relationship with Him through the gospel. And so, if anyone does not experience His grace and mercy, he will have to give an account of the life that he lived while he did live in God's house. Love in Christ, Marty

So how can you determine what is violence and what is righteous judgement?

[942767]

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 03 2010,23:42)

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:42) It is not God's will that any man be destroyed, but if he is destroyed, it is because he chose not to be reconciled to God. “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Sounds like it is God's will to make one lump to be honoured and another lump to be destroyed, no matter what that lump chose. TIm

Hi Tim:

The whole world belongs to God, and so, yes, he has the power to destroy every one if that is what He chooses to do.

The passage of scripture that you quoted relates to what God did to Pharaoh. First, it was Pharaoh who was an unbeliever and he hardened his heart and would not let the children of Israel go and serve God, and then God chose to harden his heart so that Israel would see His power, and by this they were supposed to see the mighty works of God in delivering Israel from bondage.

Also, these scriptures relate to Jacob and Esau. The Apostle Paul comments that God said “Jacob have I love and Esau have I hated” prior to them having been born or having done good or evil.

What is being said here is that salvation is not of works, it is by faith in what God has done for us through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. The gospel is preached to every individual. Jacob wrestled with God and man and his name was changed to Israel. Esau sold his brithrite for a bowl of pottage. This is symbolic of his rejecting his right to be born again.

It is God who has decided to have mercy on man, by giving us the means to be reconciled to Him. Salvation is of faith so that it might be by grace, not of works lest any man should boast.

John 3:16-17 states: For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son thatWHOSOVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

No, God is calling whoever chooses to be reconcile to Him through His provision to come that He might show them His mercy. It is a choice.

But yes, God has forseen who would believe and who would not.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:42)

Quote (Stu @ May 03 2010,21:18) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Jesus's love is embodied in his threat to destroy people. Stuart Hi Stu: It is not God's will that any man be destroyed, but if he is destroyed, it is because he chose not to be reconciled to God. Quote John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Someone who has chosen not to be reconciled to God will be judged according to the life that he lived.  Every man will give an account to God for the life that he lived on the day of judgment.  Since all of us have broken God's law, the punishment will be according to the offence. Love in Christ, Marty

This is all a bit psychopathic really, isn't it.

I didn't want to destroy anyone judge, but…

Just shows you what a nonsense the concept of free will is.

Stuart

[TimothyVI]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 04 2010,00:54)

Hi Tim, There is more depth to the verse than is shown by casual reading. The lump of clay has a Will of it's own and can choose to be perfect in the hands of the potter. Who would not want to be a perfect vessel moulded by perfect hands…and yet, so it is that the Will of the clay of some is out of line with the Will of the potter. One lump wants to be made an ornate China White washing bowl in the hope of adorning the wash table of a Queen…but is only quality enough for a dog bowl. Will that one not be rejected when it is judged after coming through the fire, indeed, if it made it through the fire? Another, quality enough for a dinner plate, will undersell itself and end up as that dog bowl. Will it not smash itself the first time it is used? Both these, go to perdition. And yet they were both made perfectly, according to the potter's skill but it is the clays failing that they chose the wrong vessel to be created from them. The potter is not partial. Whatever the clay says it is qualified for, so the potter makes of it in his perfect skill and then – puts it to the fire, which is it's judgement. Makes sense?

Sorry just askin.
That makes no sense at all.
You just completely changed the verse and gave the lump of clay power over the potter.

Tim

[bodhitharta]

I keep asking why anyone need to change the Word of God to feel better about believing in it.

Either believe it or leave it alone.

God destroys the earth with a flood and the average Christian says that is not a violent act.

It's crazy just either say “I don't know why” or “God can do what he wants”

There whole entire religion is based on a murder and yet they explain if this murder did not happen no one would be saved.
So at least in that case they whole heartedly Applause that Murder.

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2010,10:23)

Quote (942767 @ May 04 2010,10:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2010,04:43) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Is destroying someone an act of violence? No, I don't see it as violence, but it is righteous judgment.   One cannot continue to live in God's house beyond this life if they choose not to be reconciled to Him and learn to live by His principles.  This world is temporary and God is calling each and every man into a personal relationship with Him through the gospel. And so, if anyone does not experience His grace and mercy, he will have to give an account of the life that he lived while he did live in God's house. Love in Christ, Marty So how can you determine what is violence and what is righteous judgement?

Hi BD:

Quote

Romans 9:14 (King James Version) 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

But I guess if you are the one being destroyed you will think it is an act of violence.

Quote

Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (Stu @ May 04 2010,20:24)

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:42) Quote (Stu @ May 03 2010,21:18) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Jesus's love is embodied in his threat to destroy people. Stuart Hi Stu: It is not God's will that any man be destroyed, but if he is destroyed, it is because he chose not to be reconciled to God. Quote John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Someone who has chosen not to be reconciled to God will be judged according to the life that he lived.  Every man will give an account to God for the life that he lived on the day of judgment.  Since all of us have broken God's law, the punishment will be according to the offence. Love in Christ, Marty This is all a bit psychopathic really, isn't it.   I didn't want to destroy anyone judge, but… Just shows you what a nonsense the concept of free will is. Stuart

No, I don't see it that way. He has given you a choice.

Quote

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 05 2010,09:48)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2010,10:23) Quote (942767 @ May 04 2010,10:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 04 2010,04:43) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Is destroying someone an act of violence? No, I don't see it as violence, but it is righteous judgment.   One cannot continue to live in God's house beyond this life if they choose not to be reconciled to Him and learn to live by His principles.  This world is temporary and God is calling each and every man into a personal relationship with Him through the gospel. And so, if anyone does not experience His grace and mercy, he will have to give an account of the life that he lived while he did live in God's house. Love in Christ, Marty So how can you determine what is violence and what is righteous judgement? Hi BD: Quote Romans 9:14 (King James Version) 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. But I guess if you are the one being destroyed you will think it is an act of violence. Quote Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Love in Christ, Marty

You have not shown that VIOLENCE is unrighteous, what you have shown is that VIOLENCE can be a righteous act.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Revelation 18:20-22

Would you like to change your answer now?

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,14:18)

Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,12:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,10:35) Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,09:16) I cant believe I put that there. Anyways, when I used the words 'played the victim' I just found out that means something different than I thought, it should say 'was the victim…and felt sorry for myself”  But thats all past and is things Id rather not talk about especially on an internet forum. Its just the questions you ask,  saying theres no forgivness?  Saying everyone has to have always been perfect, 1st John 1:10; If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Ecclesiastes; There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days. Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God So are you perfect?  Do you have a perfect past? Jesus was a man. Ecclesiastes; There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days Did Jesus sin? Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Was Jesus born of a woman? Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:10-12 Jesus said be perfect, are you Perfect? You can't ask me the question because you said that you go exclusively by what Jesus said whereas I have said I get clarification from The Quran. To you, Jesus was just a Man, to me he is more than just a man, who was his father? Was it a man? It was the Holy Spirit… so those verses you put dont fit. You said “did Jesus sin?” He was a lamb without blemish.. If you go on to say he sinned by his display of anger at the money lenders of the temple, it was righteous anger. As was the harsh words spoken to the scribes, pharisees and like. Anger at the right things isnt wrong. Ephesians 4: 26;.. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: . Neither give place to the devil. Why do you continue to get parts from the bible to suit the Quran but ignore those which disagree with it? The Quran came much later than the Bible, than the teachings of our Lord and master Jesus, it was written by a man and like iv said- who was he to call Jesus a liar? So you say the Holy Spirit is a MAN? If not why call the HOLY SPIRIT “Father” ? Does righteous anger include: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:26-28 If you agree with that verse why dispute that Jesus authorizes this slaying here?

Hi BD:

The discussion relative to violence was in response to your trying to accuse Jesus of sin. And so, Babylon may have been violently overthrown, but this was an act of judgment by God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ May 05 2010,10:01)

Quote (Stu @ May 04 2010,20:24) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:42) Quote (Stu @ May 03 2010,21:18) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2010,21:14) Hi BD: Luke 19:26-28 alludes to the day of judgment when all those who are not a part of the body of Christ will be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Jesus's love is embodied in his threat to destroy people. Stuart Hi Stu: It is not God's will that any man be destroyed, but if he is destroyed, it is because he chose not to be reconciled to God. Quote John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Someone who has chosen not to be reconciled to God will be judged according to the life that he lived.  Every man will give an account to God for the life that he lived on the day of judgment.  Since all of us have broken God's law, the punishment will be according to the offence. Love in Christ, Marty This is all a bit psychopathic really, isn't it.   I didn't want to destroy anyone judge, but… Just shows you what a nonsense the concept of free will is. Stuart No, I don't see it that way.  He has given you a choice. Quote John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Love in Christ, Marty

What, you can't see that there really is no choice to make when following one of the options ends in violent retribution by an all-powerful deity?  Where would the free choice be there?

What a nonsense religious platitude it is.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 05 2010,11:49)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,14:18) Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,12:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,10:35) Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,09:16) I cant believe I put that there. Anyways, when I used the words 'played the victim' I just found out that means something different than I thought, it should say 'was the victim…and felt sorry for myself”  But thats all past and is things Id rather not talk about especially on an internet forum. Its just the questions you ask,  saying theres no forgivness?  Saying everyone has to have always been perfect, 1st John 1:10; If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Ecclesiastes; There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days. Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God So are you perfect?  Do you have a perfect past? Jesus was a man. Ecclesiastes; There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days Did Jesus sin? Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Was Jesus born of a woman? Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:10-12 Jesus said be perfect, are you Perfect? You can't ask me the question because you said that you go exclusively by what Jesus said whereas I have said I get clarification from The Quran. To you, Jesus was just a Man, to me he is more than just a man, who was his father? Was it a man? It was the Holy Spirit… so those verses you put dont fit. You said “did Jesus sin?” He was a lamb without blemish.. If you go on to say he sinned by his display of anger at the money lenders of the temple, it was righteous anger. As was the harsh words spoken to the scribes, pharisees and like. Anger at the right things isnt wrong. Ephesians 4: 26;.. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: . Neither give place to the devil. Why do you continue to get parts from the bible to suit the Quran but ignore those which disagree with it? The Quran came much later than the Bible, than the teachings of our Lord and master Jesus, it was written by a man and like iv said- who was he to call Jesus a liar? So you say the Holy Spirit is a MAN? If not why call the HOLY SPIRIT “Father” ? Does righteous anger include: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:26-28 If you agree with that verse why dispute that Jesus authorizes this slaying here? Hi BD: The discussion relative to violence was in response to your trying to accuse Jesus of sin. And so, Babylon may have been violently overthrown, but this was an act of judgment by God. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

I never said Jesus sinned, Can you show me such a comment?

[karmarie]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,10:35)

Jesus was a man. Ecclesiastes; There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days Did Jesus sin? Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Was Jesus born of a woman? Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:10-12

Here maybe- (Back a page or two).

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