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I just thought the following should be posted in the “Trinity” forum as well as where it originally appeared, because I know that some only look in this forum for questions about the doctrine of the trinity.
I wrote:
Quote Quote
trinity is a word that describes god. the word trinity not being in the bible is the worst argument.No, actually the worst argument is this:
“No, the word 'trinity' is not in the bible. It's true that phrases like 'God the Son', 'God the Holy Spirit', and 'three in one' are completely absent from scripture. Yes, it's also true that certain aspects of Trinitarian doctrine, like the co-equality and co-eternality of the Son, are directly refuted in scripture by verses like Luke 1:35, Psalm 2:7, and 1 Corinthians 11:3 to name a few. However, I still believe that the Trinity is a biblical teaching, and not just a man-made evolving theory about God that took the 'church fathers' several centuries to 'perfect'.”
That's the worst argument, and that's the one every Trinitarian has to make.
(For those who have ears to hear, read the following. The author's personal opinion about God is erroneous, but the historical facts that he cites about the evolving doctrine of the Trinity are priceless. Go here: http://mikeblume.com/modoldtr.htm )
Nick wrote:
Quote Excellent WIT ps
Though your Rev Blume is deceived. He says that Jn 1.1 says the Word is “God Himself”,”the God”.
Not so.
To confuse the Son with his Father is surely folly and no basis for further building of doctrines or useful teachings.I wrote:
Quote I am fully aware that Mike Blume is mislead about who God is. However, I still think that the historical information that he presents is important enough to overlook those flaws long enough to finish his article about the history of the trinity doctrine. He shows quite clearly that even the “church fathers”, (to whom Trinitarians are indebted to for their theology), do not agree with the modern-day “orthodox” version of the trinity. Just like any other man-made philosophy, the doctrine of the trinity shows clear evidence of continual evolution, rather than being a consistent teaching from the beginning. Nick wrote:
Quote Yes WIT.
You are quite right and that is interesting. So how can those who espouse the theory justify their evolving situation? Earlier versions are now regarded even by some of them as heresies.Good question Nick. I have never even heard someone attempt a satisfactory answer.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2005,21:26) Hi ss,
Tit 2.13
” ..looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD and our Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for himself a people for his own possesion, zealous for good deeds”So who returns? Jesus Christ and the Glory of God.
Who gave himself to redeem us ? Jesus Christ.
Whom do we belong to? Jesus Christ and the Father.
Exactly Nick, the following scriptures confirm your words.Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.Acts 7:56
“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.The logic of men will always fail as they try to use there carnal minds to understand God. The scriptures of the diety of Christ are so simple yet the human mind of has made it complex. They quote scripture they don't understand and then try to make it prove there reasoning. Not one of these trinitarians quoted what Jesus said about His diety.
In simple logic that doesn't need any interpretation Jesus said in John 20:17 that the Father is His God. He also called His Father the only true God in John 17:3. Jesus DENIED His diety in Mark 10:18 when He said to the man that called Him good, “why callest me good, there is none good but one,that is God”. Jesus said all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth (Mk 28:18) If Jesus was God who can give God power?
The bible tells us Jesus is the Christ meaning the annointed one OF God. It is always the greater one that annoints the lesser. (acts 10:38) How God annointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil;for GOD was with Him. Jesus said I can of my own self do nothing,as I hear I judge and my judgement is just because I seek not my will but the will of the Father that sent me.(Jn 5:30) Jesus also said that He proceeded forth and came from God.(Jn8:42)
The apostles knew that Jesus was not God by the following scriptures….Matt 16:16,acts 2:36,acts 5:30-31,acts 17:51,1Cor 3:23,1Cor 8:6,1Cor 11:3,1Cor 15:24,*1Cor 15:28,
Eph 1:3, Eph 1:17, Col 1:15,Col 3:1, 1Tim 2:5, 2Tim 4:1,Heb10:9, Heb10:12, 1Pet 1:3, Rev 1:1, Rev 3:12, Rev 20:6. Jesus was the first of all the creations of God.(Rev3:14)
He is the IMAGE of the invisable God (Col1:15)
He is the mediator between God and men.(1Tim 2:5)
Jesus Himself will be subjected to God at the end of the world (1Cor 15:28)
Make no mistake about it…Jesus the Christ is the annointed one of God and in no way is God. God fully dwelled in the body of Christ Jesus and sometimes God spoke through Him and sometimes Jesus Himself spoke. People who think Jesus is God are actually in denial of the words spoken by Jesus Himself as in Jn 20:17 and Jn 17:3.
Think about this, if Jesus is God then who did He pray to?
Himself? Jesus called out to God while dying on the cross. Did He call Himself? Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Does He sit next to Himself? Jesus said God gave Him commandment. Did He command Himself? Kinda stupid isn't it?
God is ONE and Christ Jesus Yeshua is God's Son who took our sins away in His blood and made a way back to God for us. Praise His Holy name forever and give thanks to the Lord our God for Him.You are right Joe,
The carnal mind cannot understand the things of God. You need the mind of Christ and that is only given to those who have joined themselves to him. The Spirit of Christ fills the body of Christ and it is the Spirit of truth that is the teacher of the renewed mind.The Spirit teaches us from the words of Christ. False teachers go beyond the words of Christ and use the more popular worldly wisdom such as in philosophy and theology.
Man love spiritual 'knowledge' but unless admixed with wisdom it is useless like concrete witout water. Solomon sought wisdom and was given everything else. Wisdom is given to whoever asks[James].
Those who are too closely married to such knowledge quickly become divorced from reality and commonsense.
Hi liljon,
Not by his own standards. He knew God is greater.
In Jn 20 Thomas said” My Lord and my God” when he believed.
3 verses later it says this;
” but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God ;and that believing you may have life in his name”So if you are going to build an understanding of the role of Jesus which verses carry more weight? Does the spontaneous exclamation of an apostle prove that Jesus is not the messiah or the Son of God but God Himself? No it acknowledges he has divine nature and is Lord.
Think about it.
Quote Jesus didn't deny Deity. Other wise he wasn't being consistent (John 20:28) Is not Jesus Good?
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.Luke 18:19
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.When Jesus said only God was good, he was acknowledging that any goodness that he has came from God and not from himself. So yes Jesus was good only because he was filled with God's nature, but the goodness is not of himself.
Likewise even his life came from God for God is the original and all good things come from the Father. Jesus even said “not my will but your will”. So he came to do the will of God, not his own will. Yes only God is good, but like Christ we too can be the recipients of that good.
James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.Yeshua spoke this old testament prophecy of himself in Revelation 3:7:
Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
And then the said this to Peter:
Matt 16: 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth *will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
- It is evident that the Key to the house of David is given to Christ by the LORD of Hosts.
- As equally clear that the keys of the kingdom of heaven is given to Peter/the church by Christ.
Amen cubes,
Jn 1.18
“No one has seen God at any time;the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father. He has explained Him”So Jesus is not God, who is the Father.
The Son of God is begotten of God in the beginning.
No one has seen the Father but the Son of God has been seen by men.
Jesus is the unique God begotten of the Father who lives in the bosom of the Father.
God lives in him too and he reveals the Father, his God, to men.
Why do men get confused?He was begotten of God, conceived of the Spirit and born of Mary.
Dear NH
Just a quick question as I am not too sure what you mean when you said what you said in the last post.
you quote:
Jesus is the unique God begotten of the Father who lives in the bosom of the Father.So are you saying that Jesus is Godlike or as in your words, the unique begotten God. Is that to say, like man and woman are under the banner of 'Man/mankind'. ie: woman came from the bossom of man, and man now comes from woman – ie woman in man and man in woman. Therefore in essense we are one (mankind), but in individuality we are unique, man and woman.
Are you saying the name God is a just name for the family of God, ie: The complete name for the: Father, the Son of God & God's Holy Spirit… I am trying to understand all this from your view point.
Or are you saying that Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God does not have the final authority because he is begotten of God the Father, therefore under his authority. He is not God but is a unique God under the authority of the Father…
Please can you help me out here but this statement you made sounds very close to the Trinity teaching you say you are not in agreement with or the one I have been brought up to understand. Three Individual Persons under the banner of the 'Name' God. But all individual but united.
Thanks
Another thing to whoever can help…
I can see Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son, it states his name is the Son of God many times in the NT and never God the Son.
However, I want to try find out something that has crossed my mind but I have not got my commentary here with me.I noticed that Adam is also called the son of God in the geneologies. (Luke 3:38) Is there any difference, in the original language, for the way these two terms appear which is distinguishable. ie why has one got a capital like in the Son of God and the other lower case (Adam – son of God)? Are the words the same in the original language? I seem to remember that they were but can't look it up. I wanted to know if there is a way to tell the difference between these two different yet similar phrases.
Also,
Adam was created from dust and the God breathed life into him and he became a living soul. Now Adam's offspring, are they created or begotten: If we are created or begotten, like begets like, it stands to reason that we are still 'formed' dust, with a soul is that a logical conclusion to follow. For we all return to dust.If so, then Mary was 'formed' dust, with a soul. So my question is this, did God use the same approach of making a life in Mary (Jesus) that he did in making life come from the dust of the ground (Adam)… just a thought… seeing as they are compared to each other in Romans 5 both regarded as 'by one man'. (one doing wrong and failing God – causing many to be made sinners, the other doing right and through obedience – caused many to be made righteous) Any thoughts please.
Hi A7,
Good questions. It is not what I say but what the bible reveals about Christ that matters.The Son of God is called the
“only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father” in John 1.18“Only begotten” is one word in the greek, “monogenes” 3439 ,and is derived from
“monos” 3441 [alone], and
“ginomai”1096 with multiple meanings such as
“born”, “become” ” became” “came” etc.
There is a lot in this word but clearly it does state something about separateness and uniqueness and his direct derivation from the Father. “only begotten” seems inadequate to express from this word what is meant about his nature.The Son of God is godly by nature and the highest being with the highest authority under God. He eventually returns all authority to the Father. [1 cor 15.28] God utterly trusts him and has given all authority to him but he is still only the begotten Son of God and not God Himself. He said the Father is greater than him-should we not believe him?
Scripture tells us there are many “gods”[1Cor 8.5]and many heavenly[Jb 1-2,.38]and reborn human sons of God in His family. Since all were created through the Son of God that surely means he is a god too as he is greater than them-the only begotten God.
That says nothing about any supposed equality of the Son of God with God. He decried that idea and Phil 2 does too. The moon, in natural terms, is of the same order as the Sun as heavenly bodies but there is no comparison between the reflected glory of one and the Glory itself.
The Spirit is God's Spirit. The Spirit is the power and grace of the Father as also expressed in Yeshua. The Holy Spirit is never separate as a person from the Father who is holy and is Spirit.
Lk 3.38
” the son of Enosh, the son of Adam, the son of God”
The same word is used for Adam as for Yeshua in Ps 2. Capitals are only a more recent addition and not apparently present in the manuscripts so I do not think you can separate the words used for “son”Scripture says that Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb so it seems that her “dust” contributed to the “tent” of the Son of Man. We are “outer man -dust”
and “inner man-soul and spirit”
Both aspects are in conflict till we are set free from “dust” and receive our new body. Scripture says we return to dust [body] but we sleep in the earth[soul]and the spirit returns to God.[or to be one with Yeshua in the NT as with Stephen's death]
Hope this helps.ps. None of us understands God fully as we are mortal men. But He does reveal things about himself and about the Son that we can grasp.
The name “God” refers to the Father unless qualified as in Jn 1.18 or used in a context that does not relate to one individual. An exception is Heb 1.8 quoting a psalm where scripture identifies Yeshua as the God spoken of and the context tells us that God has a God too, the Father. God is a name referring to beings greater than man.
Yeshua is not of the same essense as the Father. That is one of the mistakes that led to trinity theory. He is begotten from God and is separate. He has divine nature and he is the exact image of the Father and reflects the glory of the Father to us. He has extraordinary unity with the Father [and vice versa] in will and spirit but that is by choice not being.
Hi,
Of course if Jesus is the “only begotten God” as Jn 1 .18 tells us then that puts paid to any trinity theory.Scripture says he is in the bosom of the Father and that is as close as they can be WITHOUT BEING THE SAME isn't it? After all no one would suggest that Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham in Lk 16 makes them one being would they?
He is not the same as the Father but separate, and trinity theory demands they be part of the same.
Ah well.Yes, Nick. If God intended for us to neglect the use of logic when reading the bible, then perhaps the trinity would make sense. But I doubt he did because of his call to us to come reason together with him: Isaiah 1:18.
Phil 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
***
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”****
Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your *understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.If Christ was equal in status to The Most High God to begin with, then is this considered to be an exaltation to one who was from eternity always exalted and worshiped? And that to the glory of the Father (Most High)?
So we fallen humans are saved by grace to move on to a better state of life, thanks to what Jesus did for us, but he who was equally YHWH to begin with, who gave himself for us, for his trouble is rather now told that every knee should bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord? And that to the glory of the Father? How is this a promotion to glory for one who already and always had this status?
The word says that for his trouble, God has HIGHLY EXALTED HIM. I consider these verses to be true, which means that Christ although had glory with the Father, could not have had this much glory to begin with, making this a definite exaltation.
The Trinitarian way of thinking turns this and other verses like it into demotions and therefore insults to the one who promoted and to the one who accepts the promotion. One is inadvertently called a cheap skate and the other for not knowing the difference b/n a demotion and promotion.
And what does that do for the hope we have and the promises we hold on to in the beloved? It says that we can expect to be worse off than we are for trusting God and following Jesus. Not good and glorifying to God.
Come on, Trinitarians, be reason–able!
Thanks for your post Cubes.
It's certainly good to reason together. For we can know the truth if we do, because God wants us to know the truth and reasoning is a form of searching and seeking. To know the truth is a blessing from God and it sets us free.
If truth sets us free, then what do the doctrines of demon and men do?
Thanks back, t8.
I am going to repost Eph 1:17-22 in the “Holy Spirit” thread started by stroshow because it is applicable there too seeing that the scripture clearly states once again who it is that gives the spirit of wisdom.
Luke 4:8 Jesus defeats satan with these words when challenged to bow down and worship him… It is written, Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.
Am I right to question why God the Son (So they say) was saying that he must only worship God. How can God worship God if they are one.
Satan who was once one of the sons of God, surely he would have known who he was. After all, was he not the one sent to destroy him and his works. Why did Satan never say, God the Son. Everytime he or any of his demons speaks to Jesus, they call him the Son of God. He even uses it in a question in verse 9. Sounds familiar dont you think? – just like he questioned Eve way back in the Garden? He knew that as the Son of God he had been given authority from God and the question satan made was there to question that authority.
He was trying to get Jesus to act on his own authority and so make him sin. Jesus said he only did what he was told to do and never did anything of his own authority… this act of turning stone into bread was not wrong to do, in fact it would have been looked on by most people today as a miracle, however, it would have been Jesus acting on his own authority and that is why he said: man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God… Jesus only did what his Father told him and showed him.
Just a thought.
Hi A7.
You rightly say scripture does not say Yeshua is “God the Son”Men have always tripped over the statement that Yeshua made that the Father and himself are one. It is the key to the false belief of trinity. Yeshua also said God was his Father and these both must be reconciled as scripture cannot be broken. But the mere fact that he said that he and his Father were one contains the fact that they are also two.He never said he was God. It is men that draw false conclusions from his words.
Unity is is many forms. In scripture it is said that a man is joined to his wife and they become one flesh. We all know that they are not one being from then on. Their degree of unity determines whether they remain married surely. Unless they reach agreement on some things and continue to work on that unity they soon become separate again.
There is no greater closeness that that between the Father and the Son-in will and purpose and agreement. The Son absolutely obeys the Father and the Father absolutely trusts the Son. Thus they are one.
Hebrews 5:8-9 NKJV
8 though He was a Son, yet He [learned obedience] by the things which He suffered. 9 And “having [been] perfected”, He [became] the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,Hebrews 7:28 NKJV
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who [“has been” perfected forever].I noticed these scriptures today and find them hard to comprehend, can anyone shed light on the fact that is says that Jesus was perfected… not perfect but was perfected: my understanding is that this means that you are made perfect by a process or it would not say it in this way. The word means to reach completion, made perfect, finished & fulfilled.
The word perfected in Hebrews 5:8-9 comes under the category of: to make, or perfect. (a process) Paul uses the same word for himself in Philipians 3:12 and Jesus uses this word of us in John 17:23 that we may be made perfect in Him… we are not perfect and are being made perfect. It was only when he was perfected that he BECAME the author of Salvation.
Can anyone shed light on the above scriptures.
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