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Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,13:45) Quote (katjo @ Feb. 21 2010,13:31) jesus is the Christ, He is the Lord, and is our God. The Holy Spirit is sent in His name! And I can give you lots of scriptures for all. Have you read the scripture ;You cant say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit? Acts17;24… THE GOD WHO MADE THE WORLD AND EVERYTHING IN IT…..IS THE Lord OF HEAVEN AND EARTH! ACTS 10;36, TELLS US JESUS CHRIST IS Lord OF ALL! He is our LORD GOD!! I can show you more if you'd like. God Bless…
katjo
I could sit down and write an alternative 'scripture' for you. In that writing, none of the things you claim would be true. You would be completely disproved by the scripture according to Stu.What would you do then? Try to find other sources that tell me I am wrong?
Where are those other sources then? How do you convince me that the gospels are not a complete fabrication? One example: there was no census at the alleged time of Jesus's birth. So if that is wrong, why should any of it be believed? These were religious writers with a very strong motive to show that their executed leader was the subject of older prophecies. How much else did they invent besides the non-existent census? There is no corroborating evidence for the slaughter of the innocents either. In fact there is no corroborating evidence for Jesus at all. Josephus and Tacitus were recording what christians told them.
Do you understand what a close thing your belief system really is, katjo? You must believe on faith, because there is no evidence for a great deal of it.
Stuart
Stuart
Stuart,John 20
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”1st Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1st Corinthians 13:13
..these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love.Psalm 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 21 2010,20:09) Evidence starts to show in time.
So is it with evidence, or without?If with, then what evidence? Is it unambiguous evidence, enough to overcome the highest standards of skepticism, or just a kind of personal evidence that really should not be very convincing to others?
Stuart
karmarie
Quote John 20
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Does that mean that Thomas was not blessed?Quote 1st Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;
Agreed.Quote nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Disagreed. I am spiritual and I discern none of it. These things are imagined by a human brain that has evolved a capacity for credulity, possibly as a byproduct of believing your parents without question in your first five years of life, and also possibly because of the voracious pattern-seeking your brain does, even finding patterns where there are none.Quote 1st Corinthians 13:13
..these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love.
Yes it is. And hope comes a close second. And faith, the ignorant man’s panacea, comes in a distant fourth behind real knowledge.Quote Psalm 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
The nastiest acts in the world are committed by those who claim they are the steps ordered by their LORD.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,19:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 21 2010,19:17) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,18:14) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 21 2010,17:03) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,11:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 21 2010,11:17) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,08:42) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 21 2010,03:58) Quote (princess of the king @ Feb. 21 2010,01:57) Quote He talked of himself in both roles Quote I dont know what more you want much more
You believe that Jesus worships God, right?I worship the God that Jesus worships
Why do you use the present tense for verbs relating to the actions of Jesus?Stuart
Because Jesus is Alive and Worships God.
But you don't believe in the resurrection, just in the Jesus died and now is looking down from heaven sense of “alive”.In other words you are asserting a religious myth.
Stuart
I didn't say Jesus died.I believe in the Day of resurrection as Jesus taught it, as he said whoever believes in him he shall raise up on the last day
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:43-45John 11:23-25 (King James Version)
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
So Jesus is alive, and 2014 years old?Stuart
Is there a biological reason he can't be alive?
Yes, his telomeres will have well and truly unravelled by now. Certainly they were getting pretty useless by about 130CE.If he existed at all.
Stuart
Are you a telomeres expert?Have you never seen the disease where a person ages super rapidly, that a child may die as early as 8 or 9 from old age? What makes you think it cannot go the other way around?
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,21:03) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 21 2010,20:09) Evidence starts to show in time.
So is it with evidence, or without?If with, then what evidence? Is it unambiguous evidence, enough to overcome the highest standards of skepticism, or just a kind of personal evidence that really should not be very convincing to others?
Stuart
STU,You have nevr had any evidence that God does not exist or that the theory of evolution is valid.
I'm not saying that you didn't read about the theory of evolution and had faith in what you read but you have not discovered, dated and assembled fossils have you?
You would not have come up with the theory of evolution on your own, would you?
In-fact why is it independent cultures never come up with the theory of evolution? But every culture past or present come up with knowing God exists?
Can trea the bible one time and understand it all! ABSOLUTELY NOT! You have got to study, it and study it and start putting scriptures together from the old to the new testament, to fully start understanding. You can read it for years and still not figure things out, and the longer your in the word the more the Holy Spirit reveals things to you.
katjo
B.D. You are just going in circles here. You need to read back over some of the scripts. you quotted me. Because remember there is only ONE LORD… jesus is Lord…. and the Lord is our GOD!! This is foolishness. You try to take away from Christ and I have showed you SO MANY SCRIPTURES that call the Lord our GOD, and you simply deny them. And if you dont beleive in the ressurection, there is no Holy Spirit! It doesnt matter if you like it that way or not… GOD SAYS SO!!! Find out who he really is!! Now just answer my question Ive answered you over and over. DO YOU BELEIVE JESUS IS LORD? (Thats very clear scripture) THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD(scripture) CANT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHOUT HIM, AND THE LORD IS OUR GOD!!! I'LL WAIT ON YOUR ANSWER
katjo
Karmarie, Do you read the King James or Quran?
katjo
Quote (katjo @ Feb. 22 2010,05:30) B.D. You are just going in circles here. You need to read back over some of the scripts. you quotted me. Because remember there is only ONE LORD… jesus is Lord…. and the Lord is our GOD!! This is foolishness. You try to take away from Christ and I have showed you SO MANY SCRIPTURES that call the Lord our GOD, and you simply deny them. And if you dont beleive in the ressurection, there is no Holy Spirit! It doesnt matter if you like it that way or not… GOD SAYS SO!!! Find out who he really is!! Now just answer my question Ive answered you over and over. DO YOU BELEIVE JESUS IS LORD? (Thats very clear scripture) THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD(scripture) CANT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHOUT HIM, AND THE LORD IS OUR GOD!!! I'LL WAIT ON YOUR ANSWER katjo
First of all there are many lords because lord does not in any way mean God. So Jesus can be lord and not be the Lord God.“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:20-22Jesus tells you right there that calling him lord will not help you unless you do the will of his Father which is The Only True God.
There is Only ONE GOD and Jesus confirms that the Father is The Only TRUE GOD.
Jesus worships the Lord GOD, You say that you believe that Jesus is the Lord God, so if you believe this simply say that you do not believe that Jesus worships God.
If you can say that, you believe it. but if you cannot say that “Jesus does not worship God”, then what is it you are believing?
Quote (katjo @ Feb. 22 2010,05:31) Karmarie, Do you read the King James or Quran? katjo
What would the King James have to do with anything no Christian had access to the King James version of the Bible until 1600 years after Christ was risen to Heaven, how do you think they got along without it.Quote (katjo @ Feb. 22 2010,05:21) Can trea the bible one time and understand it all! ABSOLUTELY NOT! You have got to study, it and study it and start putting scriptures together from the old to the new testament, to fully start understanding. You can read it for years and still not figure things out, and the longer your in the word the more the Holy Spirit reveals things to you. katjo
Karmarie, Do you read the King James or Quran?
Hi Katjo I only have; The revised standard edition and the Jerusalem bible. I dont read the Quran (I tried to once but like Pauls books my mind couldnt understand it so I didnt read on).Do you think the 12 Disciples and all who followed them spent all day reading the new testement? It didnt even exist as it does today back then.
“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.” (John 5:39,40).
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,21:13) karmarie Quote John 20
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Does that mean that Thomas was not blessed?Quote 1st Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;
Agreed.Quote nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Disagreed. I am spiritual and I discern none of it. These things are imagined by a human brain that has evolved a capacity for credulity, possibly as a byproduct of believing your parents without question in your first five years of life, and also possibly because of the voracious pattern-seeking your brain does, even finding patterns where there are none.Quote 1st Corinthians 13:13
..these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love.
Yes it is. And hope comes a close second. And faith, the ignorant man’s panacea, comes in a distant fourth behind real knowledge.Quote Psalm 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
The nastiest acts in the world are committed by those who claim they are the steps ordered by their LORD.Stuart
Stu, you are so good at talking back. Are you learning anything/ ok dont answer that question- please. Cause I know what you will say!B.D. and Karmarie, Think what you want! Im not running in circles with you no more. I have gave you so many scriptures and you simply DENY THEM! But I promise you , you are not getting no where or understanding, until you ask Jesus into your heart. To be your Savior, and forgiveness for your sins! Thats when things start happening!
I Hope you find Him…
katjoQuote (katjo @ Feb. 22 2010,14:22) B.D. and Karmarie, Think what you want! Im not running in circles with you no more. I have gave you so many scriptures and you simply DENY THEM! But I promise you , you are not getting no where or understanding, until you ask Jesus into your heart. To be your Savior, and forgiveness for your sins! Thats when things start happening! I Hope you find Him…
katjo
I really dont get what your saying katjo, iv asked Jesus into my heart so many times when I was younger, iv been baptised, iv prayed all my life- what so if I dont study the scriptures hard enough theres no hope for me? If I believe Jesus is the Son of God im doomed too?Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 22 2010,02:36) Are you a telomeres expert? Have you never seen the disease where a person ages super rapidly, that a child may die as early as 8 or 9 from old age? What makes you think it cannot go the other way around?
No I am certainly not an expert on telomeres.If I remember correctly, the only other way it could go would be if your cancer cells outlived you.
Stuart
BD
Quote You have nevr had any evidence that God does not exist or that the theory of evolution is valid.
How can you have evidence for something not existing? That would be a bodhithartism. What I have is the fact that none of the evidence we do have is in any way suggestive of the existence of anything like what you appear to call god.Quote I'm not saying that you didn't read about the theory of evolution and had faith in what you read but you have not discovered, dated and assembled fossils have you?
Faith is believing despite the lack of evidence (hence the story of Thomas). When it comes to natural history I do not believe anything that is unsupported by evidence. Real scientists, whatever their discipline, have a social contract with their communities to provide the highest quality of information possible. Their professional reputations are made or broken on how they respond to this demand, and there are a few scientists who are a laughing stock amongst their peers because they took shortcuts and did not provide the highest quality of information. So this is not faith, but trust, which is built on the evidence of what scientists have done in the past. Science works, scientists are accountable to their peers and will be called to account if they are found to have falsified anything, which just about invariably is what happens to the tiny number of fraudsters.None of that can be said for the charlatan creationist. They have no professional responsibility to anyone; no reason to provide anything more than what they do provide: lies.
Quote You would not have come up with the theory of evolution on your own, would you?
I don’t know. I don’t think I am in Darwin’s class brilliance-wise, or would have had the associations with other top naturalists to piece together his theory, so possibly not. If Darwin had not published then Wallace would have; there was no shortage of people tinkering with evolutionary ideas. I’m not sure where I would come down that list. Probably well into the thousands.Quote In-fact why is it independent cultures never come up with the theory of evolution? But every culture past or present come up with knowing God exists?
I think the basic reason is the interpretation of the fossil record. Many people who discovered fossils had strange religious ideas about their origins, and I think it was Robert Hooke who was the first to conclude that they really were animal and plant remains.Regarding widespread god belief, if the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn 'Abdillah āl ash-Shaikh were to turn up to Friday prayers this week and publicly renounce god-belief, declaring himself convinced that there are no gods of any kind, would that change the likelihood for you that gods exist? With the ‘every culture’ reference you are just asserting the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populam. The reality or othewise of gods in independent of the number of people who believe in them.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 22 2010,17:04) Quote
Faith is believing despite the lack of evidence (hence the story of Thomas). When it comes to natural history I do not believe anything that is unsupported by evidence.Understood, however what you call evidence is not what you yourself have experienced or discovered so you are really displaying faith in the evidence of others. I myself have personally experienced God so I have more than faith in the existence of God, I have empirical knowledge of the existence of God.
Quote Real scientists, whatever their discipline, have a social contract with their communities to provide the highest quality of information possible. Their professional reputations are made or broken on how they respond to this demand, and there are a few scientists who are a laughing stock amongst their peers because they took shortcuts and did not provide the highest quality of information. I'm not doubting the sincerity of any scientist what I am saying is that these scientists do have personal ambitions and motivations that may cause them to apply their information in ways that benefit their career which could help them receive grant money or research funds.
Quote So this is not faith, but trust, which is built on the evidence of what scientists have done in the past. Science works, scientists are accountable to their peers and will be called to account if they are found to have falsified anything, which just about invariably is what happens to the tiny number of fraudsters. I could provide the same argument for religion
Quote None of that can be said for the charlatan creationist. They have no professional responsibility to anyone; no reason to provide anything more than what they do provide: lies. Unless you can prove a negative it is impossible to conclude that someone is lying
Quote I don’t know. I don’t think I am in Darwin’s class brilliance-wise, or would have had the associations with other top naturalists to piece together his theory, so possibly not. If Darwin had not published then Wallace would have; there was no shortage of people tinkering with evolutionary ideas. I’m not sure where I would come down that list. Probably well into the thousands. Most of what you said there is speculation but it is a fact that Darwin himself said he didn't really believe in Natural selection but it provided for him a way to classify. But what a boon to scientists, imagine how much money was made recreating an undefined picture
Quote I think the basic reason is the interpretation of the fossil record. Many people who discovered fossils had strange religious ideas about their origins, and I think it was Robert Hooke who was the first to conclude that they really were animal and plant remains. It is amazing to go from identifying fossils as plant and animal remains and simply because some of those plant and animals are extinct assume that they are the ancestors of remotely different animals of today.
Quote Regarding widespread god belief, if the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn 'Abdillah āl ash-Shaikh were to turn up to Friday prayers this week and publicly renounce god-belief, declaring himself convinced that there are no gods of any kind, would that change the likelihood for you that gods exist? I'm not aware who that is but as I have already testified to you, my knowledge of God is rooted in emperical evidence and therefore is not dependent on what others “believe”
Quote With the ‘every culture’ reference you are just asserting the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populam. Actually that is not an from “argumentum ad populam” because the argument refers to disparate communities and not as a whole population if you suggest that it is an “argumentum ad populam” then your use of fossils as evidence is the same thing because basically you are saying because there are so many different fossils they must mean something when in reality the only thing you “know” is there are a lot of fossils.
Quote The reality or othewise of gods in independent of the number of people who believe in them. That's my point!
Your answers were much more honest and I appreciate that not that you weren't being honest on purpose but it seems you are being more thoughtful and clear, with that being said let's review this.
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