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Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,18:07) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 12 2010,11:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,08:44) That's not a problem, so if Jesus paid the price then how is it he is at the right hand of God. Sinners will still go to hell in whatever form it is in and before Jesus came sinners would be going to hell in whatever form it is in.
The righteous will still go to heaven and before Jesus came the righteous would be going to heaven even Jesus said he didn't come for the righteous but the lost.
The fact is God does not change and has always been full of Compassion and Mercy and yet HIS wrath for the evil still exists.
Jesus fulfilled his mission of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and he submitted to God.
Crucifixion would not add to or take away the Grace and Mercy of God and it didn't happen as Jesus name proves “Jehovah Saves”
According to your twisted logic: Jesus' crucifixion was (Falsely) totally unnecessary; according to your FAULTY reasoning?
Jesus mission here on Earth was to remove your god from the “Godhead“; THE REALITY you don't want to accept!“GOD The Father” = “HolySpirit” – (guess who); Theomatics CLEARLY shows this “Bible Truth“=117 !
117=151–34
Now Jesus sits at God's right hand (Geometry and Gematria CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE)! Something else you are unwilling to accept!
“The Large Box”=117 represents “GOD The Father”=117, “The Box”=74 inside represents “Jesus”=74: NOW at “GOD The Father's right hand”!
Yes, I agree Jesus is at the right hand of God.The crucifixion of Jesus is crucifiction
“God Saves”
2Cor.4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world(guess who) hath blinded the minds of
them(BD all 'book of fraud' followers) which believe not, lest the light
of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 13 2010,19:51) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
No Bod that is just misunderstood-
They were boasting cause they thought they killed Jesus but allthough they had killed his body it didnt work because He was risen from the dead! and he walked and talked and ate even- in the flesh after, so they killed him not! See! Its all how you see it.
If he was risen from the dead then he was raised up to heaven in the flesh, because he said he had flesh and bones.Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:38-40Quote “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him 158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157
This shows that Jesus was raised up to God alive. You believe this was after he died and was raised back to life. I believe according to the Quran he hasn't yet died but was raised to God Alive.
We both believe he was raised by God in the flesh and bone according to both the Quran and the Gospel/NT
Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged.
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 13 2010,20:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,18:07) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 12 2010,11:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,08:44) That's not a problem, so if Jesus paid the price then how is it he is at the right hand of God. Sinners will still go to hell in whatever form it is in and before Jesus came sinners would be going to hell in whatever form it is in.
The righteous will still go to heaven and before Jesus came the righteous would be going to heaven even Jesus said he didn't come for the righteous but the lost.
The fact is God does not change and has always been full of Compassion and Mercy and yet HIS wrath for the evil still exists.
Jesus fulfilled his mission of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and he submitted to God.
Crucifixion would not add to or take away the Grace and Mercy of God and it didn't happen as Jesus name proves “Jehovah Saves”
According to your twisted logic: Jesus' crucifixion was (Falsely) totally unnecessary; according to your FAULTY reasoning?
Jesus mission here on Earth was to remove your god from the “Godhead“; THE REALITY you don't want to accept!“GOD The Father” = “HolySpirit” – (guess who); Theomatics CLEARLY shows this “Bible Truth“=117 !
117=151–34
Now Jesus sits at God's right hand (Geometry and Gematria CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE)! Something else you are unwilling to accept!
“The Large Box”=117 represents “GOD The Father”=117, “The Box”=74 inside represents “Jesus”=74: NOW at “GOD The Father's right hand”!
Yes, I agree Jesus is at the right hand of God.The crucifixion of Jesus is crucifiction
“God Saves”
2Cor.4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world(guess who) hath blinded the minds of
them(BD all 'book of fraud' followers) which believe not, lest the light
of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Does YHVH tell Isaiah and Jesus that he is the one that has dulled the minds of those who have disbelieved?Did YHVH harden the heart of Pharoah?
You would be better off using the name ALLAH because you should not use the sacred YHVH as you may profane that name accidentilly with all your foolish accusations, most which are based in ignorance. That's why the Jews don't even use it.
Once you understand that there is Only One True God you can simply say THE GOD(As in there only being One)
Quote If he was risen from the dead then he was raised up to heaven in the flesh, because he said he had flesh and bones. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.Luke 24:38-40
This shows that Jesus was raised up to God alive. You believe this was after he died and was raised back to life. I believe according to the Quran he hasn't yet died but was raised to God Alive.
We both believe he was raised by God in the flesh and bone according to both the Quran and the Gospel/NT
Ok so both Christian and Muslim believe Jesus was raised in the flesh.
Thats interesting.
(2nd John 1;7)
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.Quote Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. I really dont know!
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) If he was risen from the dead then he was raised up to heaven in the flesh, because he said he had flesh and bones.
Those were “Two” separate occurrences.The “Resurrection Account” and The “Ascension account”.The “Resurrection Account”
Matt.28:5-6 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus,
which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.The proclamation of the Ascension
John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.The “Ascension account”.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus,
which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:50) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 13 2010,20:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,18:07) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 12 2010,11:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,08:44) That's not a problem, so if Jesus paid the price then how is it he is at the right hand of God. Sinners will still go to hell in whatever form it is in and before Jesus came sinners would be going to hell in whatever form it is in.
The righteous will still go to heaven and before Jesus came the righteous would be going to heaven even Jesus said he didn't come for the righteous but the lost.
The fact is God does not change and has always been full of Compassion and Mercy and yet HIS wrath for the evil still exists.
Jesus fulfilled his mission of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and he submitted to God.
Crucifixion would not add to or take away the Grace and Mercy of God and it didn't happen as Jesus name proves “Jehovah Saves”
According to your twisted logic: Jesus' crucifixion was (Falsely) totally unnecessary; according to your FAULTY reasoning?
Jesus mission here on Earth was to remove your god from the “Godhead“; THE REALITY you don't want to accept!“GOD The Father” = “HolySpirit” – (guess who); Theomatics CLEARLY shows this “Bible Truth“=117 !
117=151–34
Now Jesus sits at God's right hand (Geometry and Gematria CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE)! Something else you are unwilling to accept!
“The Large Box”=117 represents “GOD The Father”=117, “The Box”=74 inside represents “Jesus”=74: NOW at “GOD The Father's right hand”!
Yes, I agree Jesus is at the right hand of God.The crucifixion of Jesus is crucifiction
“God Saves”
2Cor.4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world(guess who) hath blinded the minds of
them(BD all 'book of fraud' followers) which believe not, lest the light
of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Does YHVH tell Isaiah and Jesus that he is the one that has dulled the minds of those who have disbelieved?Did YHVH harden the heart of Pharoah?
You would be better off using the name ALLAH because
you should not use the sacred YHVH as you may profane that name accidentilly with all your foolish accusations,
most which are based in ignorance. That's why the Jews don't even use it.
How many times must “I” tell you…
allah is a 'title'=66; NOT A NAME!Prob.3:33: The 'curse'=66 of the LORD is in the house of the wicked:
but he blesseth the habitation of the just.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPsalm 45:17 “I” will make thy name “YHVH“ [YÄ-hä-vā] to be remembered
in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2010,11:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) If he was risen from the dead then he was raised up to heaven in the flesh, because he said he had flesh and bones.
Those were “Two” separate occurrences.The “Resurrection Account” and The “Ascension account”.The “Resurrection Account”
Matt.28:5-6 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus,
which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.The proclamation of the Ascension
John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.The “Ascension account”.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus,
which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Still he was raised in the flesh.Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2010,11:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:50) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 13 2010,20:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,18:07) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 12 2010,11:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 12 2010,08:44) That's not a problem, so if Jesus paid the price then how is it he is at the right hand of God. Sinners will still go to hell in whatever form it is in and before Jesus came sinners would be going to hell in whatever form it is in.
The righteous will still go to heaven and before Jesus came the righteous would be going to heaven even Jesus said he didn't come for the righteous but the lost.
The fact is God does not change and has always been full of Compassion and Mercy and yet HIS wrath for the evil still exists.
Jesus fulfilled his mission of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and he submitted to God.
Crucifixion would not add to or take away the Grace and Mercy of God and it didn't happen as Jesus name proves “Jehovah Saves”
According to your twisted logic: Jesus' crucifixion was (Falsely) totally unnecessary; according to your FAULTY reasoning?
Jesus mission here on Earth was to remove your god from the “Godhead“; THE REALITY you don't want to accept!“GOD The Father” = “HolySpirit” – (guess who); Theomatics CLEARLY shows this “Bible Truth“=117 !
117=151–34
Now Jesus sits at God's right hand (Geometry and Gematria CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE)! Something else you are unwilling to accept!
“The Large Box”=117 represents “GOD The Father”=117, “The Box”=74 inside represents “Jesus”=74: NOW at “GOD The Father's right hand”!
Yes, I agree Jesus is at the right hand of God.The crucifixion of Jesus is crucifiction
“God Saves”
2Cor.4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world(guess who) hath blinded the minds of
them(BD all 'book of fraud' followers) which believe not, lest the light
of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Does YHVH tell Isaiah and Jesus that he is the one that has dulled the minds of those who have disbelieved?Did YHVH harden the heart of Pharoah?
You would be better off using the name ALLAH because
you should not use the sacred YHVH as you may profane that name accidentilly with all your foolish accusations,
most which are based in ignorance. That's why the Jews don't even use it.
How many times must “I” tell you…
allah is a 'title'=66; NOT A NAME!Prob.3:33: The 'curse'=66 of the LORD is in the house of the wicked:
but he blesseth the habitation of the just.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPsalm 45:17 “I” will make thy name “YHVH“ [YÄ-hä-vā] to be remembered
in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.
ALLAH= 34 by the same method you say that YHVH=63http://www.godprovenas1.com/index.html
ED just to let you know, there is a huge numerological movement going on proving the existence of God.
Even when you say the number 66 is not good according to your method it is good using another method besides the fact that 6 is not 66 and 66 is not 666 so you shouldn't try to intimidate people with similar numbers that they are already having anxiety about.
The best method is to choose ONE method and demonstrate its validity but currently you are using english, hebrew, greek arabic..etc. And manipulating your use of them and when you do this you water down your own theory just as STU pointed out to you.
You are not the only one yelling out “I am a witness” a lot of you guys are saying “I am” right now.
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
There is no blood sacrifice needed, that's just the point.IN SHORT… If one believed that a blood sacrifice was necessary before God would forgive you, then even one example where God forgave without a blood sacrifice would prove that this idea is UnBiblical. There are many such examples, but the most interesting is found in the Book of Leviticus. The reason this is so interesting is that it comes right in the middle of the discussion of sin sacrifices, which is found in the first chapters. In Leviticus 5:11-13, it states, “If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering.” One can also see that one does not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins in the Book of Jonah 3:10. There, the Bible simply states that God saw the works of the people of Ninevah. Specifically it says that the works God saw were that they stopped doing evil, and so God forgave them. There are plenty of other examples, and the idea that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is UnBiblical.
We have proof of other non-blood sacrifices:
So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. [Numbers 16:47]
And in the following verse we see jewelry offered for atonement, but no blood is shed.
So we have brought as an offering to the Eternal the gold articles each of us acquired– armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces– to make atonement for ourselves before the Eternal. [Numbers 31:50]
So it is obvious, that a blood sacrifice is not needed! Another example is that Isaiah had his sin removed by a live coal:
Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. [Isaiah 6:6-7]
But many will say, that without a Temple, we cannot offer any kind of blood sacrifice. This is true. That is why God gave many different methods of atonement to the Jews. There was a time in Israel's history when they became all too consumed with the sacrificial ceremonies. For this, God rebuked them. God reminded them that the Laws of God were more important than the sacrifices.
For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. [Jeremiah 7:22-23]
No Blood is ever needed for atonement with God. Obedience is THe Way
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,13:48) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
There is no blood sacrifice needed, that's just the point.IN SHORT… If one believed that a blood sacrifice was necessary before God would forgive you, then even one example where God forgave without a blood sacrifice would prove that this idea is UnBiblical. There are many such examples, but the most interesting is found in the Book of Leviticus. The reason this is so interesting is that it comes right in the middle of the discussion of sin sacrifices, which is found in the first chapters. In Leviticus 5:11-13, it states, “If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering.” One can also see that one does not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins in the Book of Jonah 3:10. There, the Bible simply states that God saw the works of the people of Ninevah. Specifically it says that the works God saw were that they stopped doing evil, and so God forgave them. There are plenty of other examples, and the idea that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is UnBiblical.
We have proof of other non-blood sacrifices:
So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. [Numbers 16:47]
And in the following verse we see jewelry offered for atonement, but no blood is shed.
So we have brought as an offering to the Eternal the gold articles each of us acquired– armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces– to make atonement for ourselves before the Eternal. [Numbers 31:50]
So it is obvious, that a blood sacrifice is not needed! Another example is that Isaiah had his sin removed by a live coal:
Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. [Isaiah 6:6-7]
But many will say, that without a Temple, we cannot offer any kind of blood sacrifice. This is true. That is why God gave many different methods of atonement to the Jews. There was a time in Israel's history when they became all too consumed with the sacrificial ceremonies. For this, God rebuked them. God reminded them that the Laws of God were more important than the sacrifices.
For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. [Jeremiah 7:22-23]
No Blood is ever needed for atonement with God. Obedience is THe Way
So where in the new testement did it all start, that blood sacrifice was necessary for sin? Hebrews? or where?Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,13:48) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
There is no blood sacrifice needed, that's just the point.
How were the “coats of skins” made? the LIES of satan you propagate are boundless!Gen3:17-24 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the “tree of life“.ok so what does this mean
“Mark 14
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.I was sitting thinking obout the whole thing then thought about the last supper so went and got my bible and it opened at the exact page. When I went to look up the refernces it opened at the last supper in matthew
(Im rushing sorry)
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,14:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,13:48) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
There is no blood sacrifice needed, that's just the point.IN SHORT… If one believed that a blood sacrifice was necessary before God would forgive you, then even one example where God forgave without a blood sacrifice would prove that this idea is UnBiblical. There are many such examples, but the most interesting is found in the Book of Leviticus. The reason this is so interesting is that it comes right in the middle of the discussion of sin sacrifices, which is found in the first chapters. In Leviticus 5:11-13, it states, “If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering.” One can also see that one does not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins in the Book of Jonah 3:10. There, the Bible simply states that God saw the works of the people of Ninevah. Specifically it says that the works God saw were that they stopped doing evil, and so God forgave them. There are plenty of other examples, and the idea that one needs a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is UnBiblical.
We have proof of other non-blood sacrifices:
So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. [Numbers 16:47]
And in the following verse we see jewelry offered for atonement, but no blood is shed.
So we have brought as an offering to the Eternal the gold articles each of us acquired– armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces– to make atonement for ourselves before the Eternal. [Numbers 31:50]
So it is obvious, that a blood sacrifice is not needed! Another example is that Isaiah had his sin removed by a live coal:
Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. [Isaiah 6:6-7]
But many will say, that without a Temple, we cannot offer any kind of blood sacrifice. This is true. That is why God gave many different methods of atonement to the Jews. There was a time in Israel's history when they became all too consumed with the sacrificial ceremonies. For this, God rebuked them. God reminded them that the Laws of God were more important than the sacrifices.
For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. [Jeremiah 7:22-23]
No Blood is ever needed for atonement with God. Obedience is THe Way
So where in the new testement did it all start, that blood sacrifice was necessary for sin? Hebrews? or where?
Here you go: http://outreachjudaism.org/response.htmlAlthough the statement “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” is found nowhere in the Jewish scriptures, it does appear in the Christian scriptures. In Hebrews 9:22 the author misquotes Leviticus 17:11 when he states “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” Although this quote in Hebrews 9:22 is always cross referenced in a Christian study Bible to Leviticus 17:11, it is actually a stunning misquote of the original text.
…
Moreover, the Torah strictly prohibited the Jewish people from offering human sacrifices under any circumstances. There is not one place throughout the entire corpus of the Jewish scriptures where human sacrifices are condoned. Throughout the Book of Leviticus, only distinct species of animals are permitted for use in blood sacrifices.
and also….
The prophets declared that repentance and charity are more favorable than a blood sacrifice Throughout the Jewish scriptures, the prophets declared that repentance and charity are more pleasing to God for atonement than a blood sacrifice.
They repeatedly forewarned the Jewish people from becoming obsessed with blood offerings. Other methods of atonement were more efficacious and would even replace animal sacrifices. For example, King David declares in Psalm 40:76 that
“Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; but my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.”These words of the Bible hardly agree with the Christian doctrine that sin can only be expiated through the shedding of blood. Because the Psalmist's words were deeply offensive to the early church, Hebrews 10:5-6 altered Psalm 40:7 to read instead
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.”
Notice how King David's original words, “but my ears You have opened” have disappeared entirely in the Hebrews quote. Instead, this New Testament author replaced this expunged clause with the words “But a body you have prepared for Me.” This is a startling alteration of the Jewish scriptures.
Hosea foretold that the Jewish people would be without a sacrificial system, and instructed us to replace animal offerings with prayer In Hosea 3:4-5, the prophet foretold with divine exactness that the Nation of Israel would not have a sacrificial system during the last segment of Jewish history until the messianic age.
Hosea 3:4-5 reads,
“For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.”
In the words of the Bible, this period of time would last for many days. Yet, despite the repeated proclamations of the church that the crucifixion of Jesus serves as a sin sacrifice today, the words of Hosea were meticulously fulfilled.
Given the spiritual magnitude of this remarkable prophecy, Hosea was compelled to reveal how the ecclesiastical temple
functions were to be replaced. In essence, if the prophet is testifying that the nation of Israel will indeed be without a sacrificial system during their long exile until the messianic age, what are we to use instead? How are the Jewish people to worship without blood sacrifices during their bitter exile? What about all the animal sacrifices prescribed in the Book of Leviticus? Can the Jewish people get along without animal offerings? Missionaries claim they cannot. The Bible disagrees.For this reason, the statement in Hosea 14:2-3 is crucial. In these two verses, Hosea reveals to his beloved nation how they are to replace the sacrificial system during their protracted exile. The prophet declares that the Almighty wants us to “render for bulls the offering of our lips.” Prayer is to replace the sacrificial system.
“Take words with you, And return to the LORD. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, For we will render for bulls the offering of our lips.” (Hosea 14:2-3)
The prophets never instruct the Jews to worship any crucified messiah or demigod.7 Nor does scripture ever tell us that an innocent man can die as an atonement for the sins of the wicked.8 Such a message is utterly antithetical to the teachings of the Jewish scriptures. Rather, it is the lips of the sinner that is transformed into bulls of the sin offerings.
Ezekiel condemns the doctrine of vicarious atonement The prophet Ezekiel warned against Christendom's central doctrine that an innocent human being can die for the sins of the wicked.
Throughout the 18th chapter, Ezekiel warned his people that this erroneous teaching that a righteous man could die for another man's sins was contrary to the will of God. The way for the sinful man to come right by God is to turn away from his rebellious ways, repent, and thereby the penitent is assured complete forgiveness. Throughout Ezekiel's uplifting sermon on the forgiveness of sin, blood sacrifices are never mentioned. Ezekiel 18:1-4, 19-23 reads:
“The word of the Lord came to me, saying: “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel, saying: `The fathers eat sour grapes, and the sons' teeth are set on edge?' As I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to Me, the father as well as the son — they are Mine. Which ever soul sins, it shall die…. Yet you ask: Why did the son not bear the sin of the father? But the son, justice and righteousness did he do, all My decrees did he safeguard and perform them. He shall surely live. The soul that sins, it shall die! The son shall not bear for the sin of the father, nor the father bear for the sin of the son. The righteousness of the righteous person shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked person shall be upon him. As for the wicked man, if he should turn away from all his sins which he did, and safeguard all My decrees, and do justice and righteousness; he shall surely live. He will not die. All his transgressions which he committed will not be remembered against him. For the righteousness which he did, he shall live. Do I desire at all the death of the wicked man — the words of my Lord, God — is it not rather his return from his ways, that he might live.”Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2010,15:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,13:48) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
There is no blood sacrifice needed, that's just the point.
How were the “coats of skins” made? the LIES of satan you propagate are boundless!Gen3:17-24 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the “tree of life“.
ED,Are you saying that God made a blood sacrifice and offered the skins and coats to the ones who sinned?
Does that make sense to you that God made atonement by shedding the animals blood? Would Adam and Eve have to had make the sacrifice if what you are “trying” to say is true?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,16:37) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2010,15:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,13:48) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
There is no blood sacrifice needed, that's just the point.
How were the “coats of skins” made? the LIES of satan you propagate are boundless!Gen3:17-24 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the “tree of life“.
ED,1) Are you saying that God made a blood sacrifice and offered the skins and coats to the ones who sinned?
2) Does that make sense to you that God made atonement by shedding the animals blood?
3) Would Adam and Eve have to had make the sacrifice if what you are “trying” to say is true?
You continually show how very little you know about the God of “The Bible“=63 (YHVH=63) !1) That is NOT my idea; THAT IS what “The Bible” IS DEFINITELY SAYING !
2) To you it doesn't make any sense, because you don't know THE REAL GOD yet!
3) They didn't know how to fix the jam that they were in,
just like you don't realize that you (also have turned your back on God and) are in the same jam that they were in.
Read the story of Cane and Able; Abel did what was right, while Cain followed your god which lead to his destruction!
That is the same path (as Cain) you are currently on, and I have been trying real hard to get you to realize this FACT!Heb. 9:22 Almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (of sin).
Heb.10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more [animal offerings] for sin (due to the CRUCIFIXION of “Jesus Christ”=151!)
Because NOW we have a NEW “Testament”=117, due DIRECTLY to the DEATH of the “Testator”=151! (Hebrews 9:15-18)
This is the Gospel=74 of Jesus=74; AND YOU NEED TO REPENT! Luke 13:5…except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Remission: pardon, deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, freedom
THE CRUCIFIXION was absolutely necessary; something satan has taught you to 'scoff at' !
Keep listening to satan's lies in the 'book of fraud' it is really getting you somewhere; NOT !
“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPS. Remember my request of “only” one question per post; because I might have to go into a lot more detail for you!
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,16:54) Thanks. So was that a teaching of Pauls?
Paul popularized the concept but the fact is Jesus was teaching that God forgives those who repent from the beginning of his ministry.The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:17-19He did all this without shedding a drop of blood and his disciples did likewise.
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2010,18:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,16:37) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2010,15:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,13:48) Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,05:45) Now are you saying that Jesus being in a state of death for approxiamately 3 days was payment for all the sins past and present? I'm still not understanding the “price” he paid. The wages of sin are death and after that the Judgement. We all are going to die and we will all still be judged. Read the question asked by Marissa then her chosen best answer from Kenny. I think its pretty good.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091224014437AAXgLoH
There is no blood sacrifice needed, that's just the point.
How were the “coats of skins” made? the LIES of satan you propagate are boundless!Gen3:17-24 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the “tree of life“.
ED,1) Are you saying that God made a blood sacrifice and offered the skins and coats to the ones who sinned?
2) Does that make sense to you that God made atonement by shedding the animals blood?
3) Would Adam and Eve have to had make the sacrifice if what you are “trying” to say is true?
You continually show how very little you know about the God of “The Bible“=63 (YHVH=63) !1) That is NOT my idea; THAT IS what “The Bible” IS DEFINITELY SAYING !
2) To you it doesn't make any sense, because you don't know THE REAL GOD yet!
3) They didn't know how to fix the jam that they were in,
just like you don't realize that you (also have turned your back on God and) are in the same jam that they were in.
Read the story of Cane and Able; Abel did what was right, while Cain followed your god which lead to his destruction!
That is the same path (as Cain) you are currently on, and I have been trying real hard to get you to realize this FACT!Heb. 9:22 Almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (of sin).
Heb.10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more [animal offerings] for sin (due to the CRUCIFIXION of “Jesus Christ”=151!)
Because NOW we have a NEW “Testament”=117, due DIRECTLY to the DEATH of the “Testator”=151! (Hebrews 9:15-18)
This is the Gospel=74 of Jesus=74; AND YOU NEED TO REPENT! Luke 13:5…except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Remission: pardon, deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, freedom
THE CRUCIFIXION was absolutely necessary; something satan has taught you to 'scoff at' !
Keep listening to satan's lies in the 'book of fraud' it is really getting you somewhere; NOT !
“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPS. Remember my request of “only” one question per post; because I might have to go into a lot more detail for you!
The Quran shows that Adam and Eve were taught by God how to repent.Then learnt adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #37)Abel did what was right not in sacrifice but in Humility and respect.
No crucifixion needed for God to forgive your understanding is lacking.
I have no questions to ask because you have nothing to discuss, you are not being honest, you are making false accusations, You manipulate your methods and frankly you are not a reliable witness agreeing with atheist about the nature of God.
I have joined other sites that you have joined and I will make sure that your nonsense doesn't go unchecked until you grasp the ideas of virtue and honesty.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 14 2010,19:05)
Paul popularized the concept but the fact is Jesus was teaching that God forgives those who repent from the beginning of his ministry.The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:17-19He did all this without shedding a drop of blood and his disciples did likewise.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,
even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.Micah 7:1-4 Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits,
as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.
The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men:
they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.
That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh,
and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire:
so they wrap it up. The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge:
the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.
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